Laws of the Israelites

[mattrose]

I have just discovered Derek Flood's book Disarming Scripture. I am quite excited about it. You can look into the book at Amazon. It is totally relevant to this discussion.
He says we ought to read the Old Testament as Jesus and Paul read it.

I finished it a couple weeks ago. It has some good spots, but I didn't find it very satisfying. I actually liked Peter Enns book a little better. Even Greg Boyd takes issue with Flood's book. He just posted a 4-part critique of Flood last week http://reknew.org/

All that said, you might prefer Flood's take on these issues.

[psimmond]

Boyd's critique with Flood's response can be found here:
http://www.therebelgod.com/2015/04/a-re ... ue-of.html

[Paidion]

Thanks, Psimmond. It was actually through discovering Boyd's critique that I learned that Disarming Scripture existed.

I have read many other of Derek's writings, and was positively impressed, especially his writings concerning the the essence of salvation.

[Paidion]

How Paul Wrestled with Violent Passages in the Hebrew Bible by Derek Flood

http://therebelgod.com/Paul-n-OTviolence.pdf

[robbyyoung]

robbyyoung,
God regulates slavery, misogyny, and polygamy, and gives a legal system that left little room for compassion and mercy and you accept it without question because "the alternative is unthinkable."

Why is the alternative unthinkable? If I come to the decision that God really didn't tell the soldiers to run the babies through with swords and keep the pretty virgins for themselves, does that make God less holy or righteous? What if it actually pleases God that I don't pin what most people perceive as ugliness on him, as so many have done?

What if on Judgment Day God says,
"Robby, just so you know, I didn't do those barbaric things. But I understand why you believed that I did."
or maybe
"Robby, just so you know, I didn't do those barbaric things. And frankly, I 'm surprised you went your whole life believing I would."

Of course, maybe you're right and I'm wrong. And maybe I'll get called on the carpet...that's why I'm wrestling with this.

Hi psimmond,

The historical account says what it says. If God wasn't through with Prophets, to tell the people (us) first-hand the truth, there would be no excuse to not believe this historical account. Therefore, we have these ancient, foriegn documents (not one being original) belonging to a people far removed from us, and you think God will hold us accountable for believing the account, without Him providing any future checks and balances, as the ancients claim they had?

Where's God's Word spoken in our language by a prophet? When did God ever operate like this before, if He still had something to say?

I even gave Paidion a precious NT account straight from Jesus' mouth and it still wasn't good enough, which is fine, but this is the kind of confusion you get when you read a historical document making it about YOU, and missing its application to the original audience. It's about their context on every matter, no one else, 100s or 1000s of years later.

IMHO, I try to steer clear of classic cases of not seeing the forest through the trees. What is unreasonable about reading ancient literature regarding an audience that had inspired expectations, and believing they came to fruition? For the most part, the context demands that it was about THEM. I see this clearly.

God Bless.

[Paidion]

It seems the early Israelites saw God's hand in everything, good and evil.For example, in 2 Samuel, Yahweh was angry with Israel, and He incited David to number them. David later recognized that He had done wrong. Then Yahweh punished Israel for this by sending a pestilence (though He had taken action to bring it about):

Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go, number Israel and Judah." So the king said to Joab and the commanders of the army, who were with him, "Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people." But Joab said to the king, "May the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times as many as they are, while the eyes of my lord the king still see it; but why does my lord the king delight in this thing?" But the king’s word prevailed against Joab and the commanders of the army. So Joab and the commanders of the army went out from the presence of the king to number the people of Israel. 15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning until the appointed time; and there died of the people from Dan to Beersheba seventy thousand men. (2 Sam 24:1-4,15)

But as time went on, the Israelites began to attibute this evil of numbering Israel to Satan rather than to Yahweh. Then God punishing Israel seemed more just, than His punishing them for what He had enticed David to do.

Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to number Israel. So David said to Joab and the commanders of the army, "Go, number Israel, from Beersheba to Dan, and bring me a report, that I may know their number." But Joab said, "May the LORD add to his people a hundred times as many as they are! Are they not, my lord the king, all of them my lord’s servants? Why then should my lord require this? Why should he bring guilt upon Israel?" But the king’s word prevailed against Joab. So Joab departed and went throughout all Israel, and came back to Jerusalem. And Joab gave the sum of the numbering of the people to David. In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who drew the sword, and in Judah four hundred and seventy thousand who drew the sword. But he did not include Levi and Benjamin in the numbering, for the king’s command was abhorrent to Joab. But God was displeased with this thing, and he smote Israel. (1 Chron 21:1-7)

From these two accounts we can see the developing understanding of God's character. By the time Jesus appeared on the scene, it was a ubiquitous understanding among the Jews that Satan was responsible for evil and not God.

Jesus and Paul, when quoting the Old Testament never quoted the parts describing God killing people or ordering the Israelites to kill people. They were quite selective in that regard.

Here is Jesus's blessing on the merciful: "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy." (Matt 5:7)

And here is the blessing of the psalmist on those who kill Babylonian babies. It is addressed to the Babylonians:
"Blessed is he who seizes and dashes your infants against the rock." (Psalm 137:8)

No mercy at all!

[Homer]

Interesting. So we who are fallible are able to determine that Moses and the so called prophets are fallible in writing the Old Testament and we are able, though we are fallible, to separate the fallible from the infallible and thus come up with our infallible version of the truth. Sweet.

But then those so called prophets who wrote false things were to be stoned to death for claiming the title of prophet and being wrong in what they wrote but I'm supposing they are okay after all because that thing we read about false prophets being stoned for their falsehoods is also likely one of their falsehoods so all is good.

Perhaps we will catch up with the advocates for homosexual marriage who have run ahead of us and shown the Apostle Paul was wrong.

[dizerner]

Lol, Homer I feel the same frustration once we throw inspiration out the window...

[Paidion]

Interesting. So we who are fallible are able to determine that Moses and the so called prophets are fallible in writing the Old Testament and we are able, though we are fallible, to separate the fallible from the infallible and thus come up with our infallible version of the truth. Sweet.

Oh yes, and we who are fallible are able to decide that all of the OT is infallible, but not the Apocrypha. Our fallible decision is that the Apocrypha is fallible, even though the Catholics disagree. Only we Protestants qualify to decide which scriptures are infallible.

Now, the infallible scriptures state that the LORD incited David to number Israel, and also that Satan on that same occasion incited David to number Israel, and since both statements are infallible, then both statements are true. If we think they are contradictory, it's because of our fallible minds. They are just to weak to comprehend infallible truths. Since the infallible scriptures state that God blesses those who knock babies' brains out by whacking their heads against a rock, we simply accept it as morally right.

[robbyyoung]

Interesting. So we who are fallible are able to determine that Moses and the so called prophets are fallible in writing the Old Testament and we are able, though we are fallible, to separate the fallible from the infallible and thus come up with our infallible version of the truth. Sweet.

Oh yes, and we who are fallible are able to decide that all of the OT is infallible, but not the Apocrypha. Our fallible decision is that the Apocrypha is fallible, even though the Catholics disagree. Only we Protestants qualify to decide which scriptures are infallible.

Now, the infallible scriptures state that the LORD incited David to number Israel, and also that Satan on that same occasion incited David to number Israel, and since both statements are infallible, then both statements are true. If we think they are contradictory, it's because of our fallible minds. They are just to weak to comprehend infallible truths. Since the infallible scriptures state that God blesses those who knock babies' brains out by whacking their heads against a rock, we simply accept it as morally right.

Hi Paidion,

Both 1 Chronicles 21:1 & 2 Samuel 24:1 are referring to YAHWEH.

The Hebrew word "Satan" is not a proper noun in the Tanakh. As such, the term was not used to refer to a cosmic archenemy of Yahweh. "Satan" isn't a proper name, but a function or office with the primary meaning of: "adversary or "challenger." Satan describes a particular action or role, often in the context of opposition or judgment:

Dave Curtis

Therefore, this is a false contradiction, a misunderstanding on your part.

God Bless.