Laws of the Israelites

[TheEditor]

Those are not threats Dizerner, they are statements of fact. And some of them are parabolic whose meaning has nothing to do with final Judgment. The harshest statements are reserved for the religious leaders and self-righteous.

Regards, Brenden.

[robbyyoung]

Bless you in your convictions. However, you've asked the question regarding the replies you thus far are receiving. We are trying to show you NT passages that correlate with God's character regarding judgment. This same judgment that was recorded in the OT. God's love is in no way tainted by His righteous judgments. Is God unrighteous or unloving by being passive in the world regarding the uttermost wickedness of man's inhumanity to man? God could intervene at any time, can't He? What kind of love doesn't protect the innocent? You see how this line of thinking causes us to start judging GOD! Using this logic, GOD is most assuredly GUILTY of inaction on the part of the innocent being slaughtered daily.

As for His righteous judgments, ALL of God's judgments are remedial. But not evil actions which are falsely attributed to Him. He is PURE love!

Hi Paidion,

Pure love? So how does this "pure love" work and account for protecting His children? Didn't Yeshua say, "The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. (Matt 22:7)" We ARE NOT God. He advises US, not the other way around. He alone reserves THE RIGHT to enact judgments in concert with His "pure love". These things are solely His responsibility, and He will do as He please regarding the issue. We, on the other hand, obey what His Word demands from us, and stay in our place.

God is not guilty of inaction. His inaction in not preventing man's inhumanity to man is a matter of wrongdoing but a matter of maintaining man as free-will agents. He doesn't want a race of robots. He wants a race of human beings who will freely choose Him. And as I understand the New Testament, sooner or later all shall do so, not by having their wills forced, but of their own free choice.

Paidion, this has nothing whatsoever to do with God intervening in the affairs of men. He does it constantly irregardless of whatever
free-will man thinks he has.

God Bless.

[steve7150]

Satan caused fire to come down from heaven and destroy the sheep and servants and he caused wind to blow over the house that Job's children were in, so why do you say Satan doesn't have this kind of power?


Then you said: This is precisely the crux of the matter, which is there is no difference. Ultimately God causes everything...

Did you recently convert to Calvinism? This is one of their biggest arguments and I think it is nonsense. Are you sure you want to pin every murder, rape, and atrocity that has ever happened on God because he allowed it to happen? Most non-Calvinists (including myself) view this as utter blasphemy.






Psimmond,
Am i missing something? Satan had God's explicit permission to destroy and in Job we see Satan as a tool of God not a free will entity. So if Satan destroyed Sodom and Gemorrah did he do it on his own?

No i didn't convert to Calvinism but to me it's clear that God is ultimately responsible for everything. James said if we know to do good but choose not to, it is sin.
God chooses to not intervene when he could therefore since it's not sin, it must be part of his purposes. If it is part of his purposes and He is sovereign then he is responsible, even if indirectly. All of creation is subject to him, good and bad. Sorry if you see it as blasphemy but to me it's clear.

[psimmond]

steve7150 wrote: Psimmond,
Am i missing something? Satan had God's explicit permission to destroy and in Job we see Satan as a tool of God not a free will entity.

How are you getting this from the text? The text completely supports the view that Satan was acting as a free-will creature. God did not tell him to do any evil; he simply said he would allow him to exercise his free will. Satan chose what to do and when to do it. Permitting is not causing: God permitted me to write this response; he did not cause me to write it.

"And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord." (Job 1:12)

Now when it comes to Sodom and Gomorrah, I have no idea whether or not Satan was involved.

God chooses to not intervene when he could therefore since it's not sin, it must be part of his purposes. If it is part of his purposes and He is sovereign then he is responsible, even if indirectly. All of creation is subject to him, good and bad. Sorry if you see it as blasphemy but to me it's clear.

I agree with the above quotation except for the bit about God being responsible. Are you responsible for the sins that your children commit? After all, you brought them into this world knowing that they would freely choose to sin.

[Paidion]

Jesus held the writings of the OT in high regard; shouldn't He have said something about their errors?

Actually He DID say something about the erroneous statements attributing violence and killing to God, by their ABSENCE from any of His quotes from the OT. He also said something about this by His totally different description of His Father's character. He described the Father as one who is kind to ungrateful people and to evil people (Luke 6:35). Does one who is kind to evil people, kill them, as well as their women, children, and babies? Does one who is kind to an adulterous woman, stone her to death? Jesus didn't. He prevented it (without having to point out that it was wrong to do so.) He used the unjust law to bring to the would-be killers' minds, their own sin.

[steve7150]

Does one who is kind to evil people, kill them, as well as their women, children, and babies?










I think one of the problems is that we have a hugely inflated value about our physical life compared to God's perspective, which is much more focused on the spiritual and eternal things.

[robbyyoung]

Jesus held the writings of the OT in high regard; shouldn't He have said something about their errors?

Actually He DID say something about the erroneous statements attributing violence and killing to God, by their ABSENCE from any of His quotes from the OT. He also said something about this by His totally different description of His Father's character. He described the Father as one who is kind to ungrateful people and to evil people (Luke 6:35). Does one who is kind to evil people, kill them, as well as their women, children, and babies? Does one who is kind to an adulterous woman, stone her to death? Jesus didn't. He prevented it (without having to point out that it was wrong to do so.) He used the unjust law to bring to the would-be killers' minds, their own sin.

Hi Paidion,

Yeshua ministry had no such "absence", of killing, regarding Him and The Father's role in executing justice. Yeshua's gospel message was indeed transitional. The 1st Century Church had a mandate during this period to not avenge themselves and give place to love, amongst other things, and to let God's judgment fall when the time comes. The Church did a wonderful job remaining faithful to the end and were promised, when reaching the other side (spiritual realm) to protect, alongside Yeshua, His kingdom by ruling over the nations WITH THE ROD OF IRON. I believe this has been going on to this very day. I don't believe those in heaven are sitting around doing nothing, I'm sure you believe the same. Then what are they doing? They are ruling over the nations and serving in the Kingdom, the kingdom that IS NOT of this realm.

Nevertheless, you are still dismissing the NT witness that you say you uphold regarding the issue. So are you now discounting the NT account as well?

God Bless.

[steve7150]

Satan chose what to do and when to do it. Permitting is not causing: God permitted me to write this response; he did not cause me to write it.

"And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord." (Job 1:12)

Now when it comes to Sodom and Gomorrah, I have no idea whether or not Satan was involved.







But God initiated the debate with Satan about Job, did he not? Do you think God did not know that Satan would challenge God's judgment about Job? It was a bit more then permission, it was a test or challenge God wanted to happen or it wouldn't have happened.
God does not make people do things but IMHO he created all of us from Adam until now , the same way. We all have issues, we all have sinful inclinations, we all have good and evil and we all need redemption. Therefore God is ultimately responsible which is actually a good thing. If i was able to create my kids with sinful inclinations and good and evil in them i would be responsible, but my contributions are much more limited then God's.

[Paidion]

Yeshua's gospel message was indeed transitional. The 1st Century Church had a mandate during this period to not avenge themselves and give place to love, amongst other things, and to let God's judgment fall when the time comes.

Are you implying that Jesu's mandate no longer applies since "the time" came, supposedly in 70 A.D.?

The Church did a wonderful job remaining faithful to the end and were promised, when reaching the other side (spiritual realm) to protect, alongside Yeshua, His kingdom by ruling over the nations WITH THE ROD OF IRON. I believe this has been going on to this very day.

You believe Jesu is now ruling the nations WITH THE ROD OF IRON? If so, why aren't the nations submitting to this rule? What are have they been warring with one another ever since 70 A.D.? In what way are the nations any better off than they were prior to 70 A.D.? What indications are there that they are being ruled at all?

I don't believe those in heaven are sitting around doing nothing, I'm sure you believe the same.

Do you mean people in heaven? I don't believe there are any people in heaven yet. Enoch and Elijah were preserved from death, but no one knows where they are. All those who have died, are dead. They will not live until the resurrection.

Then what are they doing? They are ruling over the nations and serving in the Kingdom, the kingdom that IS NOT of this realm.

Jesu didn't say that the Kingdom was not of this realm. He said that it was not of this WORLD (John 18:36). He said that if it were of this world, His servants would fight to protect Him, like worldly people do. But His Kingdom was IN this world. When the Pharisees asked Him when the Kingdom of God was coming, He indicated that it was right in the midst of them! A kingdom consists of a king and his subjects. Jesu was the King, and his disciples were his subjects. So there was the Kingdom right in the midst of the Pharisees, but they didn't recognize it. However that was but the beginning of the Kingdom. Jesu gave many Kingdom parables to illustrate the growth of the Kingdom, and its final stage when Jesu returns and takes out of his Kingdom all causes of stumbling. That hasn't happened yet.

[psimmond]

steve7150 wrote: But God initiated the debate with Satan about Job, did he not? Do you think God did not know that Satan would challenge God's judgment about Job? It was a bit more then permission, it was a test or challenge God wanted to happen or it wouldn't have happened.
God does not make people do things but IMHO he created all of us from Adam until now , the same way. We all have issues, we all have sinful inclinations, we all have good and evil and we all need redemption. Therefore God is ultimately responsible which is actually a good thing. If i was able to create my kids with sinful inclinations and good and evil in them i would be responsible, but my contributions are much more limited then God's.

I don't think your last sentence works. Of course your contributions are more limited than God's, but so what? If you can pin responsibility on God for human evil because God created humans with knowledge that they would sin, then anyone who believes in the doctrine of sin and yet has children is also responsible for the sins that are later committed by their children. The Bible places responsibility on the one who sins, not on the one who created the one who sinned.

With Job you say that because God initiated the conversation (with full knowledge of what Satan would do), God is responsible. I think God's omniscience is irrelevant (see above paragraph) so the question should be "Did God tempt Satan to do evil?" According to James, that's not a possibility, but does the text indicate a temptation. Does God ever tell Satan that killing and destroying would be a good idea?

While I disagree with you about God being morally responsible for sins committed by free-will agents or for not intervening to prevent suffering, I'm not saying that God's character prevents him from causing suffering or even taking lives; I think this is what Derek Flood would say, but I'm not sure.