Laws of the Israelites

[TheEditor]

I was raised to believe it was wrong to question any of the accounts in the Bible, or to really look at them in any but the traditional ways. Since then, I have come to have certain questions about some parts of the canon. I do accept the Bible as an "inspired" book beneficial for teaching and reproving, etc. But I find that certain understandings of God's character that we arrive at, based upon what the ancient Jews believed to be the nature of God, are problematic. The biggie for me is the Book of Job.

Job is written as an epic poem, or perhaps a play. The overall view of it is that it appears to be a bunch of guys sitting around talking about God, and the nature of suffering. Many statements are made by the men in question that are sheer guesses on their part and nowhere else to be found in Scripture. Having said that, I wonder if there is any more reason to believe that the Prologue section is a factual account, than there is the musings of these men about God's permission of suffering?

My understanding is that even though the fragments of Job found in the Dead Sea is of an ancient Hebrew, the translators of the Septuagint did not take the kind of care in rendering it to Greek as they did the the first 5 books of Moses. Perhaps they felt its importance was not as great?

Essentially, taken at face value, the Prologue suggests that Satan was casually strolling through Heaven and God says "How goes it?" and then a bet ensues as to whether or not Job will be faithful. There is no other hint in Scripture that such a thing would take place. This coupled with the other factors I mentioned above, has led me to the conclusion that basing our understanding of certain theological concepts concerning God on the Book of Job, is at the very least a bit problematic.

Regards, Brenden.

[psimmond]

One thing I think we have to be careful of in a discussion like this is that we don't forget that all humans are flawed (with just one exception). Moses was a prophet but he was not a perfect man. Did he ever lie? Of course...every person has.

So if someone says "Moses was a great prophet who spoke with God, met with Jesus, etc., so we know he did not lie," right away I start tuning out. He was still human, and he was a human without the advantage of the indwelling Spirit.

And if someone says, "Even if Moses did lie at different times in his life, we know God would have prevented those lies from showing up in his writings," my first question is "How do we know?" God's will is seldom done on earth as it is in heaven. From the beginning, God has allowed almost every sin that can be imagined. How can we say that God allowed 5,000,000 Jews to be killed by Hitler and his troops but we know he did not allow any of the human writers of scripture to insert material that wasn't factual?

It certainly seems possible to believe that even inspired writers could make some mistakes. And if that is the case, some mistakes are not a reason to reject all of their writing. But it is a reason to practice discernment and weigh everything against the teachings of Christ.

How do I know the teachings of Christ are recorded without error since they were written by fallible humans? I don't. But the fact that there are four gospels written by four different writers within the first century, makes me feel pretty confident that by harmonizing the gospels, we can have a very accurate record of Jesus' teaching.

[Paidion]

Bless you in your convictions. However, you've asked the question regarding the replies you thus far are receiving. We are trying to show you NT passages that correlate with God's character regarding judgment. This same judgment that was recorded in the OT. God's love is in no way tainted by His righteous judgments. Is God unrighteous or unloving by being passive in the world regarding the uttermost wickedness of man's inhumanity to man? God could intervene at any time, can't He? What kind of love doesn't protect the innocent? You see how this line of thinking causes us to start judging GOD! Using this logic, GOD is most assuredly GUILTY of inaction on the part of the innocent being slaughtered daily.

As for His righteous judgments, ALL of God's judgments are remedial. But not evil actions which are falsely attributed to Him. He is PURE love!

God is not guilty of inaction. His inaction in not preventing man's inhumanity to man is a matter of wrongdoing but a matter of maintaining man as free-will agents. He doesn't want a race of robots. He wants a race of human beings who will freely choose Him. And as I understand the New Testament, sooner or later all shall do so, not by having their wills forced, but of their own free choice.

[Homer]

It certainly seems possible to believe that even inspired writers could make some mistakes. And if that is the case, some mistakes are not a reason to reject all of their writing. But it is a reason to practice discernment and weigh everything against the teachings of Christ.

How do we know they didn't make a lot of mistakes? The OT is chock full of things that offend the sentimental.

How do we know that they weren't mistaken about being inspired?

How do we know they were correct in remembering what Jesus said?

Why should we believe the writers of the New Testament were any more accurate than the writers of the OT?

Jesus held the writings of the OT in high regard; shouldn't He have said something about their errors?

Jesus made a lot of threats. How is that not suspicious?

And on and on.

[jriccitelli]

Psimmond we are not talking about a few singular laws or singular verses, we are talking about major themes and doctrines, that are repeated, built upon, repeated , built upon, mentioned over and over, and verified again and again, no one is really arguing for the odd singular statements. We are dealing with an ancient document that is in a different culture in a different time, not that it is not true, we just do not always understand the original context or language especially when these laws or instances are only referenced once, as is the case with most your examples.

[TheEditor]

The OT is chock full of things that offend the sentimental.

The opposite of "sentimental" is "practical" or "dispassionate". Was it "practicality" or "dispassionateness" (is that a word?) that prompted the Atonement? There used to be a series of commercials on TV for an online bank, can't remember the name, but they had candid cameras in rooms with kids and they set up situations analogous to unfair banking practices, and then ended the commercials with the announcer saying, "Even kids know when something is 'unfair'"; I wonder if we don't tend to rationalize some things because deep down we really aren't all that pleased with what we perceive as "God's actions" and then the cognitive dissonance kicks in. But it didn't seem to kick in with Abraham:

"It is unthinkable of you that you are acting in this manner to put to death the righteous man with the wicked one so that it has to occur with the righteous man as it does with the wicked! It is unthinkable of you. Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?" (Genesis 18:25)

Jesus made a lot of threats. How is that not suspicious?

Which ones? His disciples seemed to make them, but he didn't seem to go along:

"When the disciples James and John saw this they said: “Lord, do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and annihilate them?” But he turned and rebuked them, "You do not understand", he said, "what spirit it is you share." (Luke 9:54-55)

Regards, Brenden.

[dizerner]

To think that Moses could have been self-deluded and lied when it says "God said to Moses" would never have entered into the mind of Christ, Paul or the Apostles. If we take as our "word of god" the god of our own inclinations, the real Scripture becomes disrespected and disparaged for whatever strikes our fancy. This kind of attitude does not engender right beliefs or attitudes, but rather that attitude that, as Scripture describes, begins with complete reverent humility and fervency about the things of God, just like Moses and Job have, the ones who in this thread are being maligned beyond belief. The Spirit will always testify to the truths in God's Holy Word, otherwise we are just at some silly Mexican he said/she said standoff, or playing fast and loose with Scripture like the Jesus seminar where we just decide what words of Christ are "real" instead of the Spirit. I'm continually shocked that people can surround themselves with religious Bible references yet always miss the heart of what it is saying, and think they are then a genuinely religious person with no real experience of God or love for his Spirit, but perhaps it comes in spending more time in vain imaginings then engendering reverence or seeking the Truth with all one's heart. Let me just say, that won't lead one to liberal scholarship, but it will lead one to worship. A man in whom the Spirit of God resides will love and respect the Word of God, and not look down his nose at it as full of error.

Again here's the testimony of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit concerning Moses: http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... ses#p66911 — I'm afraid I'll have to start "tuning out" people that call Moses a liar.

[dizerner]

"It is unthinkable of you that you are acting in this manner to put to death the righteous man with the wicked one so that it has to occur with the righteous man as it does with the wicked! It is unthinkable of you. Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?" (Genesis 18:25)

God is not the one on trial here. Abraham is not here saying "God I sure hope you measure up to my standard!" as if he had to encourage God to do the right thing?! He is literally trying to find out what God's standard is not tell God what his standard should be. Otherwise why does he go down the numbers so slowly? You really think that at a difference of 5 or so people, which Abraham kept going down by, that somehow you will find the magic equation of just how many righteous people are worth so many wicked people? You do know Abraham was a sinner too, right? Because the righteous are only righteous by having faith in God's grace, and not trusting in their own righteousness—Scripture calls Abraham "ungodly," and as such, anyone ungodly by definition would be worthy of the judgments of God. He may have thought to intercede and he may have just wondered if Lot was in trouble, but the one thing Abraham was not doing was telling God to his face "Hey, if you don't measure up to what I think is justice, you're in big trouble God. Because that's unthinkable." Or are we to trust that God must be subservient to that little box we call our minds?

When you did these things and I kept silent,
you thought I was exactly like you.
But I now arraign you
and set my accusations before you.
Consider this, you who forget God,
or I will tear you to pieces, with no one to rescue you:

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,
declares the Lord.
As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?

[dizerner]

"Jesus made a lot of threats. How is that not suspicious?"

Which ones? His disciples seemed to make them, but he didn't seem to go along:

"When the disciples James and John saw this they said: “Lord, do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and annihilate them?” But he turned and rebuked them, "You do not understand", he said, "what spirit it is you share." (Luke 9:54-55)

Calling fire down on people is not a "threat" it's an actual enactment of punishment. Obviously Christ always taught judgment is God's business not ours. Christ said many things that most people would consider "threatening" and thus offensive, a threat being "if you do this then that will happen."


And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell. (Mat 5:29-30 NAS)

And He answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered this fate?
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Luk 13:2-5 NAS)

that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (Joh 3:16 NAS)

whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. (Mat 5:22 NAS)

And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28 NAS)

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you shall receive greater condemnation . (Mat 23:14 NAS)

Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell? (Mat 23:32-33 NAS)

And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched .
And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched .
And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mar 9:42-48 NAS)

And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! (Luk 12:4-5 NAS)

And I say to you, that every careless word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it in the day of judgment.
For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned."
(Mat 12:36-37 NAS)

He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. (Mar 16:16 NAS)

And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
So shall My heavenly Father also do to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart. (Mat 18:34-35 NAS)

But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence." (Luk 19:27 NAS)

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Joh 3:36 NAS)

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46 NAS)

And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' (Mat 7:23 NAS)

And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Luk 13:23-24 NAS)

Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it.
For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it. (Mat 7:13-14 NAS)

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
(Mat 7:19-21 NAS)

[TheEditor]

God is not the one on trial here. Abraham is not here saying "God I sure hope you measure up to my standard!" as if he had to encourage God to do the right thing?! He is literally trying to find out what God's standard is not tell God what his standard should be.

Hi Dizerner. First of all, who said God is on trial? I see no one on trial in that passage. And no, Abraham was not looking for the "magic number." He was, though, clearly worried about his nephew. But that's beside the point. He wasn't trying to "figure out" what the standard was. How do you get that from the interchange? We are told that Abraham was "God's friend." Now, we can argue and debate over exactly how much God revealed of his personality to Abraham. We are told that we have a fuller understanding of God through Christ. That this is a better revelation of God than that revealed through angels and prophets. But, if I say to a friend "It's unthinkable that you would do thus and so", I think the implications are pretty clear. Abraham was confident that God would be just, and that justice was stated as being the sparing of the righteous and in fact, it appears God went so far as to spare the wicked when he allowed Lot to go to Zoar.

By the way, who exactly here is "maligning Job"? I suggested a possible way of understanding the text, or to at least be a little less rigid with it's consideration. If that is maligning Job, then your standards are unreachable by me. Unless you weren't referring to me, but I think I was the only one to discuss the Book of Job.

Regards, Brenden.