Laws of the Israelites

steve7150
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by steve7150 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:06 pm

1. Moses lied (perhaps because if he said, "I made up this particular law," nobody would listen).
2. Moses somehow thought God told him these things but was wrong.
3. God really did say these things.
4. The Torah was written some time after Moses died and the writer/s recorded some things that weren't exactly factual.










There may also be a possibility that Moses wrote in a style using metonymys and that the killing orders actually came from Satan. It's interesting that early in the NT Satan is revealed as a serious adversary wheras in the OT almost nothing is said about him.

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robbyyoung
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Laws of the Israelites

Post by robbyyoung » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:25 pm

Paidion wrote:
Robby wrote:What you are talking about has nothing whatsoever to do with Deu 18. The entire point is, 'Did the person speak for God or not.' God making conditional decrees IS NOT what Deu 18 is talking about.
Paidion wrote:If God had made "conditional decrees," He wouldn't be changing His mind, would He?
What? The prophet doesn't always have to know God's conditions, The Prophet simply needs to speak the prophecy. Furthermore, false prophets who speak presumptously IN THE LORD's NAME, is to be dealt with by God Himself. The people were simply not to be afraid of such false prophets.

God Bless.
Last edited by robbyyoung on Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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psimmond
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by psimmond » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:36 pm

steve7150 wrote: There may also be a possibility that Moses wrote in a style using metonymys and that the killing orders actually came from Satan. It's interesting that early in the NT Satan is revealed as a serious adversary wheras in the OT almost nothing is said about him.
Can you explain the metonymy thing. I don't see how that would apply.

If the orders came from Satan, it would seem Moses thought they were from God so this would fall under #2, right?
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
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steve7150
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by steve7150 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:27 pm

Can you explain the metonymy thing. I don't see how that would apply.

If the orders came from Satan, it would seem Moses thought they were from God so this would fall under #2, right?










In the Jewish mindset Satan is a servant of God so any orders to kill might be understood to have come from God directly. In the NT , Satan may or may not have a certain amount of free will and possibly he gave these orders to Moses and to Moses it's coming from God.
I don't know if this happened that Moses was wrong since God would have permitted this and i'm not clear what the difference is.

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steve
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by steve » Fri May 01, 2015 3:52 pm

I mentioned that Paidion and I have had long debates on this general theme in a number of prior threads, which is why I have not been participating here very much. Some of the previous threads in which I participated more in discussing the differences between my view and Paidion's regarding some of these issues can be found at the following:


September, 2008 It's A Thin Line Between Love and Hate... http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=112

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May, 2012 ‪Does God still inflict national or generational judgment? http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=4054

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August, 2012 Did God Really Do This? http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4152

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July, 2013 OT equivalent of militant Islam? http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=4518

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April, 2014 Proof Text for Eventual Restoration http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=4786

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May, 2014 Is God a Hypocrite? http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=4813

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Homer
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by Homer » Wed May 06, 2015 12:26 pm

On 4/21 psimmond commented:
You can go to almost any church in America today and hear people say "God is telling me..., Yesterday, God told me..., I'm waiting on the Lord, and when he tells me..."
We do hear people say things like this; it is not unusual. But the question I have is in what manner did they perceive God speaking to them? Did they hear God speak audible words to them? Could a bystander have heard anything? Or did God "speak" to them by means of thoughts, mental impressions, or feelings? If so, how would a person know for certain that it was God?

I think what needs to be considered carefully is the manner in which the scriptures inform us of God speaking to Moses. Did God speak to Moses in a mistakable manner? Consider some scriptures:

Exodus 3:4 (NASB)

4. When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”


This is an example of two-way communication.

Exodus 19:19 - 2:1 (NASB)

19. When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder (lit. a sound). 20. The Lord came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21. Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, so that they do not break through to the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish. 22. Also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves, or else the Lord will break out against them.” 23. Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai, for You warned us, saying, ‘Set bounds about the mountain and consecrate it.’” 24. Then the Lord said to him, “Go down and come up again, you and Aaron with you; but do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, or He will break forth upon them.” 25. So Moses went down to the people and told them.
1. Then God spoke all these words, saying.......


In this case we find God speaking audibly and with words.

Numbers 7:89 (NASB)

89. Now when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with Him, he heard the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was on the ark of the testimony, from between the two cherubim, so He spoke to him.


Moses intended to speak with God and heard a voice.

Deuteronomy 4:9-13 (NASB)

9. “Only give heed to yourself and keep your soul diligently, so that you do not forget the things which your eyes have seen and they do not depart from your heart all the days of your life; but make them known to your sons and your grandsons. 10. Remember the day you stood before the Lord your God at Horeb, when the Lord said to me, ‘Assemble the people to Me, that I may let them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.’ 11. You came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the very heart of the heavens: darkness, cloud and thick gloom. 12. Then the Lord spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form—only a voice. 13. So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.


And again Moses heard a voice and words.

Deuteronomy 5:22 (NASB)

22. “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.


In this instance Moses hears a voice and then God writes on two stone tablets.

It seems obvious to me that God unmistakably spoke verbally to Moses, as I believe He did to His other prophets. God is said to have spoken a great number of things to Moses. If we take certain things Moses claimed were spoken to him by God, and discredit them because we find them or difficult or they do not fit with our paradigm or we just do not like them, then where do we draw the line? How do we know the things Moses wrote that seem agreeable or pleasing to us are not also false?

The earliest Christians found proof that Jesus was who He said He was in the writings of Moses and the prophets. How do we Know Isaiah did not make up Isaiah 53? Not good to be headed down the trail blazed by Marcus Borg and Dominic Crossan.

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steve
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by steve » Wed May 06, 2015 1:59 pm

It seems obvious to me that God unmistakably spoke verbally to Moses, as I believe He did to His other prophets.
True, but He spoke to Moses even more unmistakably:
Suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, “Come out, you three, to the tabernacle of meeting!” So the three came out. 5 Then the Lord came down in the pillar of cloud and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam. And they both went forward. 6 Then He said,

“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My house.
8 I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?”
God said that Moses heard God more clearly and more directly than did any other prophet. To cast doubt on Moses, then, is to cast even greater doubt upon all the prophets.

God further declared Moses to be "faithful in all my house," meaning that God had not found anything untrustworthy in Moses (as some here seem to think that they have found).

These words of high praise for Moses were not spoken to Moses alone (so as to make us doubt their veracity), but to his critics—one of whom was immediately struck with leprosy (by whom, I wonder? Any suggestions, Paidion?). Some of our participants ought to be asked the same question that God asked Miriam and Aaron:

"Why then were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?”

Just sayin'.

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Paidion
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by Paidion » Wed May 06, 2015 2:52 pm

I could make some suggestions, Steve. But I won't, since my past suggestions were readily dismissed—I guess on the grounds that I "don't believe the Word of God," which suggests to me a bit of bibliolatry.

However, I found the following questions from Homer to be questions I have often asked:
Homer wrote:We do hear people say things like this (God told me, etc.); it is not unusual. But the question I have is in what manner did they perceive God speaking to them? Did they hear God speak audible words to them? Could a bystander have heard anything? Or did God "speak" to them by means of thoughts, mental impressions, or feelings? If so, how would a person know for certain that it was God?
I asked one man who frequently said such things, "How does God speak to you? Does He speak in an audible voice?" and the man replied, "Yes." I didn't believe him.

However, I did know of one man (I'll call him "C") to whom I am convinced that God did speak in an audible voice. C and his siblings were raised to be atheists. C was my cousin's husband. I stayed in their home for awhile. C was gentle and loving with his wife and children. During my stay in their home, C's wife began attending the church I attended at the time and became a Christian. She also brought the children to Sunday school. C didn't object as he said, "It won't hurt them any." C used to ask me questions such as, "Do animals go to heaven?" I think he wondered just far-fetched my beliefs were. C was a very straightforward and honest person.

Long after my stay at their place, I heard the following story:
C went to a pub with his brother, who was also an atheist. They had just sat down, and C heard someone say, "C, what are you doing? You shouldn't even be here!" C couldn't believe the words he heard, but he asked his brother, "Did you say something?" His brother said, "No." Then C said, "I thought heard someone say something." (By the way, Homer, C's brother was right there, but heard nothing). A couple of minutes later, C looked up, and to his astonishment, everyone in there looked like skeletons!
For some reason, after seeing the vision of skeletons, C believed that God had spoken to him, and was dealing with him. He said to his brother, "I'm getting out of here!"
"Why?" asked his brother. "God has spoken to me!"
"What? Are you crazy? I'm not going anywhere!"
"I am," said C, and he stood up and walked out.
At this word, C's brother thought that maybe C was going out of his mind, and so out of concern for him, he accompanied C home.
At home, after talking to his Christian wife, C himself entrusted himself to Christ.

After I heard this story, I was anxious to hear it from C's own mouth, and so find out if it had really happened. A few months later, I had the opportunity. C and his family were visting us, and I asked C to tell me about the matter. He told it exactly as I had heard it and related it above. I said to him, "That's really amazing to me. God has never spoken to me in an audible voice."
C replied, "Don, you didn't need it! But in my case I would NEVER have become a Christian if God hadn't spoken to me audibly. For I didn't believe in His existence. Before God spoke to me, if anyone had told me that such a thing had happend to him, I would have called him a liar to his face! But now, that I know God is real, all I want to do is to serve Him!"
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by jriccitelli » Sun May 10, 2015 1:22 pm

'I could make some suggestions, Steve. But I won't, since my past suggestions were readily dismissed—I guess on the grounds that I "don't believe the Word of God," which suggests to me a bit of bibliolatry' (Paidion, above)
Readily dismissed? I have been debating you on this for over three years, on numerous subjects and hundreds of verses and passages, nothing has been readily, but only debated at great and exhaustive length, and I can only conclude what you have said yourself. I understand higher criticism and variations in texts, errancy and inarrancy, but you are dismissing some major themes and threads that run through the duration, at full length, from the beginning and to the end of scripture, and promised to endure forever.
Actually He DID say something about the erroneous statements attributing violence and killing to God, by their ABSENCE from any of His quotes from the OT. He also said something about this by His totally different description of His Father's character. He described the Father as one who is kind to ungrateful people and to evil people (Luke 6:35). Does one who is kind to evil people, kill them, as well as their women, children, and babies? Does one who is kind to an adulterous woman, stone her to death? Jesus didn't. He prevented it (without having to point out that it was wrong to do so.) He used the unjust law to bring to the would-be killers' minds, their own sin. (Paidion, Apr 22)
You are saying Jesus has a 'totally different description of His Father's character', how could that possible be when God never changes and neither do His promises or word?
'What if a prophet has prophesied what God had intended to do PRIOR to His changing His mind? Then events would not turn out as the prophet declared. Clearly Moses' test from Deuteronomy doesn't work. But I don't blame Moses. Probably he was unaware that God sometimes changed His mind in response to the behaviour of people' (Paidion)
And to add to Dizerners answer also, God can relent if the people repent and demonstrate righteousness. This principle was already in order and this precept already established by, and for, all the patriarchs, and likewise all the prophets to follow.

And not all prophesy was based on a necessity to repent, but if such prophetic Judgment was conditional, then the persons in question had to show 'signs' of repentance themselves to be avert the promised punishment of death, and such. So a prophet was never left empty handed in regards to a promised destruction or penalty. So Gods test established a Prophet. On the other hand a prophet who spoke of other gods was not to be heard at all: But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die... or 'Let us go and serve other gods ' (whom neither you nor your fathers have known...

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dizerner
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by dizerner » Sun May 10, 2015 3:26 pm

After I heard this story, I was anxious to hear it from C's own mouth, and so find out if it had really happened. A few months later, I had the opportunity. C and his family were visting us, and I asked C to tell me about the matter. He told it exactly as I had heard it and related it above. I said to him, "That's really amazing to me. God has never spoken to me in an audible voice."
C replied, "Don, you didn't need it! But in my case I would NEVER have become a Christian if God hadn't spoken to me audibly. For I didn't believe in His existence. Before God spoke to me, if anyone had told me that such a thing had happend to him, I would have called him a liar to his face! But now, that I know God is real, all I want to do is to serve Him!"
That's a cool story, Paidion. If only we were all instructed with audible voices we'd never have to discuss anything. I hope you understand that I don't think most of the people here aren't looking to disagree just for the sake of disagreement. What you call "bibliolatry" we call respect. Nobody wants to be labeled heretical or in error over something fundamental, who sincerely cares for the truth. We see the Bible saying that Moses had a much greater encounter with God than even this man, whose story you trusted and respected. But because what God told Moses doesn't jive with what you think is the way Jesus described the Father, you discount even Jesus' own affirmation of Moses. I mean if you had an audible voice telling you "Moses was in error, he is not from me," coming from the heavens, it would be hard to argue. But basically your entire motivation for rejecting Moses is simply that you don't like what he said. I'm not sure when that became a good criteria for discerning between truth and error. I've never heard the audible voice of God. But I have felt the witness of his Spirit on the inspiration of the Bible. And John tells me the Law came through Moses and grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Paul tells me that Moses was faithful in all God's house. Christ tells me that Moses spoke of him. Some guy on the internet tells me it's all a lie because it offends his morality.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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