Laws of the Israelites

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Paidion
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by Paidion » Sun May 10, 2015 4:38 pm

Dizerner wrote:...you discount even Jesus' own affirmation of Moses.


No I don't. Jesus never affirmed that God killed people as Moses did. His affirmation of Moses was in other respects.
But basically your entire motivation for rejecting Moses is simply that you don't like what he said.
That not only is not my entire motivation, but not even my partial motivation. My entire motivation is that some of the things Moses said about the acts of God contradict the character of God as Jesus described it. I don't think one can consistently believe both. I know that this last statement is denied by some on this forum. They affirm that God is pure love but ALSO totally just (by which they mean that He kills people or tortures them because He MUST punish sin). I think that is descriptive of a schizophrenic god. My belief is that any discomfort that God brings upon people is entirely for the purpose of bringing them from a sinful life which harms others as well as themselves, into a joyous and righteous life which brings well-being to others as well as themselves.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by jriccitelli » Sun May 10, 2015 8:47 pm

My belief is that any discomfort that God brings upon people is entirely for the purpose of bringing them from a sinful life which harms others as well as themselves, into a joyous and righteous life which brings well-being to others as well as themselves' (Paidion)
Discomfort!? You have a rather unsustainable application of the word discomfort to translate drowned, cut-off, destroyed, torn apart, gnashed, ruined, burned, ground to pieces, utterly laid to waste, totally devastated, put to death, killed, and thrown in a lake of fire. Believe whatever you want, but you can't logically translate Gods extensive descriptions and predictions of punishment as discomfort. Terrible, horrific, and fearful judgment and wrath are spoken of by Jesus and other NT writers also, who spoke of the woes that would beset us had we not repented:
'For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying (phobera) expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses...' (caps not mine, Hebrews 10:26-28)
Also your definitions demand scripture to mean that God must provide for, care for, and sustain every single human ever born - indefinitely - until 'they' decide they want to finally repent. Say it's so, if you want, but you have to believe death and destroying and purposefully putting sinners to death is part of that process, and so we must keep those scriptures that say so, and keep His word in the form and context, that has given to us.

(Discomfort: a stone in your shoe is 'more than' discomfort. When your pillow or hat isn't quite right, that is more what discomfort is)

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psimmond
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by psimmond » Tue May 19, 2015 5:48 pm

If you are certain that God said everything it is reported that God said in the Bible, then I understand completely why you will not and cannot back down.

Or maybe you are not certain, but you'd rather be safe than risk being a blasphemous heretic. And I can appreciate and respect that, also.

But the more I read through books like Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Joshua, the harder it is for me to give God credit for some of the bizarre statements attributed to him. As I said earlier in this thread, a part of me wonders if there might be a special reward on judgement day for people who stubbornly refuse to believe God sanctioned and even ordered some of the cruelty that is attributed to him. (Of course I realize God might slap them upside the head or even toss them in the lake of fire for doubting.) We'll see...
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen

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dizerner
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by dizerner » Tue May 19, 2015 6:09 pm

Only one thing matters on judgment day, will you be found in Christ, will you be found completely trusting in his Work, his death and resurrection alone. All other arguments are just arguing there is something we intuitively don't like about God, or from our fallen nature feel he is unjust or immoral in his ways. Atheists argue a similar thing, that God will reward them for being honest that the evidence for any God whatsoever is completely lacking. Moralists believe God will save people they deem as nice and good, but punish people they think are bad. The Word of God says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" and he who does not believe in Christ will perish eternally. I am here to preach one religion and one faith alone: without trust in the Work of Christ alone, you are facing your own sins, you are facing judgment without a Redeemer, Intercessor or Mediator. God's morality is not yours, God's ways are not yours, he will not save or damn the people you think he should, his Word declares one thing: Trust in Christ alone for salvation. If you reject this salvific system (which includes the function of the Mosaic law to condemn sin), you reject the Word of God and you reject Christ. God bless.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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psimmond
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by psimmond » Tue May 19, 2015 9:33 pm

dizerner, it almost sounds like you're saying if I doubt that some of what the OT says is true, I am rejecting Christ. Am I reading your last sentence incorrectly? Do you think it's necessary to believe every word in the OT in order to be saved? Maybe you mean if I reject the entire Bible? :?:
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen

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Paidion
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by Paidion » Tue May 19, 2015 10:53 pm

Dizerner wrote:Only one thing matters on judgment day, will you be found in Christ, will you be found completely trusting in his Work, his death and resurrection alone.
Where do you find this idea in the Bible? It's a fairly common claim, but I have not yet encountered anyone who could Biblically justify it.
What we do find is many verses which state that entrusting oneself to Jesus results in life. I see in the New Testament that it is Messiah Jesus Himself in whom we must trust in order to become children of God. I find nothing that trusting in His finished work results in life.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who entrusts himself into me, though he die, yet shall he live... (John 11:25)


I did find one verse that states that if you confess Jesus as Lord of your life, and believe that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (Rom 10:9)

But I doubt that merely believing in His resurrection alone would be sufficient. That is merely believing a fact.
I am here to preach one religion and one faith alone: without trust in the Work of Christ alone, you are facing your own sins, you are facing judgment without a Redeemer, Intercessor or Mediator.
If that is what you preach, then shouldn't you be able to display at least one verse which states it?

I did a search in the New Testament for the phrase "work of Christ."
I found only one, and that one doesn't refer to His death on the cross, but to the work that Epaphroditus did FOR Christ:

...for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me. (Philippians 2:30 ESV)

The apostle Paul seemed to suggest that unless we coöperate with the enabling grace of God, we receive that grace in vain:

Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. (2 Corinthians 6:1)

God is not interested in merely counting us righteous when we are not. He is interested in ACTUAL righteousness not a positional righteousness. This we can have through the enabling grace of God, made available by Christ's death and resurrection on our behalf. We appropriate that enabling grace by faith.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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Paidion
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by Paidion » Tue May 19, 2015 11:10 pm

By the way, PSimmond, I sent you a private message way back on April 27. You might want to check it out.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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Homer
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by Homer » Wed May 20, 2015 10:00 am

Hi Paidion,

I know you do not believe in imputed righteousness. I am puzzled about how, since we "stumble in many ways", we can attain righteousness. How do you see it?

You wrote:
God is not interested in merely counting us righteous when we are not. He is interested in ACTUAL righteousness not a positional righteousness.
Is the ACTUAL righteousness we must have relative or absolute?

If it is relative, how can a person know if he is righteous enough?

Would the attitude of the heart, such as that of the tax collector, Luke 18:13, be counted as righteousness? Or supplying what was lacking?

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dizerner
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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by dizerner » Wed May 20, 2015 2:41 pm

The real "switcheroo" is that works righteousness believers want to say the Law Paul refers to somehow excludes the moral law. This is completely untenable. The first two commandments were the heart of any system of moral law, loving God and neighbor. One can easily show Paul included those in his idea of Law. Once we consider the term "Law" any meritorious system of works apart from faith in grace, everything comes into focus.

and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith

Does Paul mean the false idea of the Law that is just ceremonial? The false idea that is condemned both by Moses, the Prophets and Christ? No Paul means the real inner moral Law as well, the one that only Christ fulfilled. Indeed when closely studied Paul used Law to represent any system of demand or meritorious works.

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited (imputed) as righteousness

No way around this clear verse. You're justified while ungodly by faith alone and that's imputed righteousness. If you are trusting in your own works and good deeds it will send you straight to hell, because God only accepts the burnt offering, the pleasing aroma, of his Son's sacrifice. This faith is the wedding garment without which the Master will throw you into the outer darkness (Matthew 22:13).

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

This does not mean only "part" of the Law, this includes the moral law of loving God and neighbor.

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone

Yes, you will have to throw out Paul as inspired if you hope to attain heaven by the merits of your good works. Just know that Paul's Gospel of faith alone in grace alone has been defended and preached once more. Jesus' Work on the Cross on our behalf is actual righteousness. The filthy rags of our good works never will be pleasing or good enough to replace Christ's work.

As Christ said: And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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Re: Laws of the Israelites

Post by robbyyoung » Wed May 20, 2015 3:29 pm

dizerner wrote:The real "switcheroo" is that works righteousness believers want to say the Law Paul refers to somehow excludes the moral law. This is completely untenable. The first two commandments were the heart of any system of moral law, loving God and neighbor. One can easily show Paul included those in his idea of Law. Once we consider the term "Law" any meritorious system of works apart from faith in grace, everything comes into focus.

and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith

Does Paul mean the false idea of the Law that is just ceremonial? The false idea that is condemned both by Moses, the Prophets and Christ? No Paul means the real inner moral Law as well, the one that only Christ fulfilled. Indeed when closely studied Paul used Law to represent any system of demand or meritorious works.

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited (imputed) as righteousness
Hi dizerner,

I agree. "Believing Faith" is powerful, so powerful, it is able to save - in an instant, without any time to bear fruit: case in-point, the thief on the cross. However, for those of us who must perserveer, living a long life as a Child of God, this believing faith is evident through its fruit. No fruit, no belief and this unbelief must be, of the kind, from the heart, not the superficial struggles all Christians have in life and yet still trust in Christ. We please God by trusting in His work. IMHO confusion concerning the evidentiary results of trusting in God, need not necessarily put one's salvation at risk, for God knows the heart better than us all.

God Bless.

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