The Torah is central to Judaism

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JacobMartinMertens
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The Torah is central to Judaism

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:12 pm

The Torah is central to Judaism (and therefore it is by extension central to Christianity).

It is about observing or obeying God's commands, His word being His instruction and teaching.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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Re: The Torah is central to Judaism

Post by steve7150 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:18 pm

The Torah is central to Judaism (and therefore it is by extension central to Christianity).

It is about observing or obeying God's commands, His word being His instruction and teaching










Yes but God's commands changed. The tabernacle with everything attached to it was a major part of the Torah but Jesus sacrifice ended the need for that. Some of Jesus commands were somewhat different or maybe extended Torah commands into not just certain actions or inactions but the intention of the heart.

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Re: The Torah is central to Judaism

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:18 pm

steve7150 wrote:The Torah is central to Judaism (and therefore it is by extension central to Christianity).

It is about observing or obeying God's commands, His word being His instruction and teaching


Yes but God's commands changed. The tabernacle with everything attached to it was a major part of the Torah but Jesus sacrifice ended the need for that. Some of Jesus commands were somewhat different or maybe extended Torah commands into not just certain actions or inactions but the intention of the heart.
Deuteronomy 6:4-5 NASB - 4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Leviticus 19:18 NASB - 18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Here is a verse that talks about or speaks of a tabernacle.

Exodus 25:9 NASB - 9 "According to all that I am going to show you, as the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furniture, just so you shall construct it.

The following verses also speak of the covenant,

Exodus 24:7 NASB - 7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!"

Deuteronomy 4:13 NASB - 13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Deuteronomy 5:2-3 NASB - 2 "The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 "The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today.

Deuteronomy 8:18 NASB - 18 "But you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who is giving you power to make wealth, that He may confirm His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day.

Deuteronomy 9:9, 11, 15 NASB - 9 "When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the LORD had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water. ... 11 "It came about at the end of forty days and nights that the LORD gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant. ... 15 "So I turned and came down from the mountain while the mountain was burning with fire, and the two tablets of the covenant were in my two hands.

Deuteronomy 10:8 NASB - 8 At that time the LORD set apart the tribe of Levi to carry the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to serve Him and to bless in His name until this day.

Deuteronomy 29:1 NASB - 1 These are the words of the covenant which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the sons of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He had made with them at Horeb.

Deuteronomy 31:9, 25-26 NASB - 9 So Moses wrote this law and gave it to the priests, the sons of Levi who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel. ... 25 that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 26 "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.

This passage talks about a new covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB - 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

The following passage talks about the Law and the Prophets. Jesus did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Mentioned here are those that shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17-20 NASB - 17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Here Jesus also speaks to the great commandment in the Law and the second is like it.

Matthew 22:34-40 NASB - 34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

The next two verses do speak of the things that are weightier, but not in neglect of any command.

Matthew 23:23 NASB - 23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Luke 11:42 NASB - 42 "But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

If you read in context here in the book of Hebrews, you will see that there is a change of priesthood and therefore a change of law. Now Christ is our priest.

Hebrews 7:1-28 NASB - 1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually. 4 Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils. 5 And those indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest's office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren, although these are descended from Abraham. 6 But the one whose genealogy is not traced from them collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises. 7 But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8 In this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives on. 9 And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him. 11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'"); 22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

And here some more reference is made to the old covenant and the new covenant.

Hebrews 9:1-28 NASB - 1 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place. 3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail. 6 Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, 7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation. 11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU." 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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TheEditor
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Re: The Torah is central to Judaism

Post by TheEditor » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:42 pm

Greetings Jacob,

I have had many interchanges with Torah observing Christians, from SDA's to Messianic believers. I have yet to have a satisfactory answer to the following:

Paul writes,

"You are our letter, written in our hearts and known and read by everyone. You are demonstrating that you are the Messiah's letter, produced by our service, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such is the confidence that we have in God through the Messiah. By ourselves we are not qualified to claim that anything comes from us. Rather, our credentials come from God, who has also qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, which is not written but spiritual, because the written text brings death, but the Spirit gives life.
Now if the ministry of death that was inscribed in letters of stone came with such glory that the people of Israel could not gaze on Moses' face (because the glory was fading away from it), [compare Exodus 34:29-30] will not the Spirit's ministry have even more glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, then the ministry of justification has an overwhelming glory.
In fact, that which once had glory lost its glory, because the other glory surpassed it. For if that which is brought to an end came through glory, how much more does that which is permanent have glory?-- 2Co 3:2-11

Question number One: What "Tablets of Stone" is Paul referencing in this verse?

Since it must be the Ten Commandments (I know of no other Tablets of Stone) and Paul talks of the "glory of Moses face" (see the Exodous reference above) then,

Question number Two: Why does Paul use the disparaging reference of "ministry of death" when referring to them?

Question number Three: How did these Tablets of Stone lose their glory?

Question number Four: How were these "brought to an end"?


Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Re: The Torah is central to Judaism

Post by dwilkins » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:44 pm

TheEditor wrote:Greetings Jacob,

I have had many interchanges with Torah observing Christians, from SDA's to Messianic believers. I have yet to have a satisfactory answer to the following:

Paul writes,

"You are our letter, written in our hearts and known and read by everyone. You are demonstrating that you are the Messiah's letter, produced by our service, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such is the confidence that we have in God through the Messiah. By ourselves we are not qualified to claim that anything comes from us. Rather, our credentials come from God, who has also qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, which is not written but spiritual, because the written text brings death, but the Spirit gives life.
Now if the ministry of death that was inscribed in letters of stone came with such glory that the people of Israel could not gaze on Moses' face (because the glory was fading away from it), [compare Exodus 34:29-30] will not the Spirit's ministry have even more glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, then the ministry of justification has an overwhelming glory.
In fact, that which once had glory lost its glory, because the other glory surpassed it. For if that which is brought to an end came through glory, how much more does that which is permanent have glory?-- 2Co 3:2-11

Question number One: What "Tablets of Stone" is Paul referencing in this verse?

Since it must be the Ten Commandments (I know of no other Tablets of Stone) and Paul talks of the "glory of Moses face" (see the Exodous reference above) then,

Question number Two: Why does Paul use the disparaging reference of "ministry of death" when referring to them?

Question number Three: How did these Tablets of Stone lose their glory?

Question number Four: How were these "brought to an end"?


Regards, Brenden.
I'm glad to see that we finally agree on something.

Doug

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Re: The Torah is central to Judaism

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:44 pm

TheEditor wrote:Greetings Jacob,

I have had many interchanges with Torah observing Christians, from SDA's to Messianic believers. I have yet to have a satisfactory answer to the following:

Paul writes,

"You are our letter, written in our hearts and known and read by everyone. You are demonstrating that you are the Messiah's letter, produced by our service, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such is the confidence that we have in God through the Messiah. By ourselves we are not qualified to claim that anything comes from us. Rather, our credentials come from God, who has also qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, which is not written but spiritual, because the written text brings death, but the Spirit gives life.
Now if the ministry of death that was inscribed in letters of stone came with such glory that the people of Israel could not gaze on Moses' face (because the glory was fading away from it), [compare Exodus 34:29-30] will not the Spirit's ministry have even more glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, then the ministry of justification has an overwhelming glory.
In fact, that which once had glory lost its glory, because the other glory surpassed it. For if that which is brought to an end came through glory, how much more does that which is permanent have glory?-- 2Co 3:2-11

Question number One: What "Tablets of Stone" is Paul referencing in this verse?

Since it must be the Ten Commandments (I know of no other Tablets of Stone) and Paul talks of the "glory of Moses face" (see the Exodous reference above) then,

Question number Two: Why does Paul use the disparaging reference of "ministry of death" when referring to them?

Question number Three: How did these Tablets of Stone lose their glory?

Question number Four: How were these "brought to an end"?


Regards, Brenden.
Exodus 34:29-30 NASB - 29 It came about when Moses was coming down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the testimony were in Moses' hand as he was coming down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone because of his speaking with Him. 30 So when Aaron and all the sons of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.

2 Corinthians 3:2-11 NASB - 2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

3. It must be said that what is spoken of first is the glory of Moses' face. Then yes these are tablets of stone along with or in view of the glory associated with Moses' face in receiving them. It is pointed out that there is a glory that supercedes that of the Ten Commandments in that they indeed have the ministry of condemnation.

2. It must be said that even in the New Testament writings the Law is spoken of only as good. So an understanding of what it is you are asking for is involved, in which I appeal first to the following verse.

Romans 7:13 NASB - 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Perhaps you already have an answer. Does it account for this verse? For we must let scripture interpret scripture. In this we see that we are not to form a doctrine from an isolated verse. I don't know that you are doing this. I do know I have come across people who have done so in the case of this phrase "ministration of death".

2 Corinthians 3:7 KJV - 7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:

A person would say the ministration of death is obviously the Law, the Ten Commandments, or Torah. But we cannot discard God's eternal word, which includes His commands, for our liking of just any particular or specific interpretation of this phrase.

For (here following is from what Paul wrote to Timothy),

1 Timothy 1:5, 8-11 NASB - 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. ... 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

4. So, what was brought to an end? Certainly it was not God's commands. But was it the Law (which is associated with the old covenant)?

1. The Ten Commandments (or also "Ten Words") were written by God on tablets of stone.

I must ask, what is the ministry of righteousness as compared with the ministry of condemnation?

2 Corinthians 3:9 NASB - 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

See also,

Ephesians 2:14-15 NASB - 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Colossians 2:14-15 NASB - 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

I personally believe Paul never spoke against God's Law.

Acts 21:17-30 NASB - 17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them. 27 When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, "Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place." 29 For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, and they supposed that Paul had brought him into the temple. 30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.

I must say also that we need to understand this following as well.

Romans 7:11 NASB - 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

Then,

Romans 7:1-25 NASB - 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1-4 NASB - 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

I believe my response and your post leave me thinking and reflecting on the following verse.

2 Corinthians 3:11 NASB - 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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Homer
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Re: The Torah is central to Judaism

Post by Homer » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:56 am

In response to this issue, and Sabbath keeping, I put this together some time back:


Regarding Christians and the 10 Commandments

A. In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul informs us that the Ten Commandments were being replaced by the New Covenant

2 Corinthians 3 (New King James Version)
1. Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you?
2. You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3. clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

*Here we have an allusion to the Ten Commandments and that which was written by the Spirit, through Paul, on their hearts. See Jeremiah 31:33

4. And we have such trust through Christ toward God.
5. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6. who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

*Another reference to the Ten Commandments and the Spirit, as in v.3. The Law kills; it can not give life.

7. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away (Strongs #2673, see below),

*Here Paul explicitly refers to the Ten Commandments as the "ministry of death", and hints that it is passing away.

8. how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9. For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.


*Though the Ten Commandments were glorious, the ministry of the Spirit is much more so.

10. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
11. For if what is passing away
(#2673)was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

*At the time Paul wrote, the Ten Commandments were passing away.

12. Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—
13. unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away
(#2673).

14. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away (#2673) in Christ.

*The vail of the Law is taken away in Christ.

15. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away (#4014).
17. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Strongs # 2673, Katargeo
to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
to deprive of force, influence, power
to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
to cease, to pass away, be done away
to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
to terminate all intercourse with one

King James Word Usage - Total: 27 destroy 5, do away 3, abolish 3, cumber 1, loose 1, cease 1, fall 1, deliver 1, miscellaneous 11

B. The 10 commandments were the first/old covenant. [The Ten Commandments were at least a synecdoche for the whole old covenant, if not the covenant itself. (Old Covenant = Old Testament)]

To demonstrate this all we need to do is quote the Bible without comment.

The tablets are part of the abolished first covenant:

Hebrews 8:13, When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Hebrews 9:1,4 "Now even the first covenant had ... the tables of the covenant"

Exodus 34:27-28: "Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

Deuteronomy 4:13: "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Deuteronomy 9:9: "When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the Lord had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water.

Deuteronomy 5:2-3: "The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."

1 Kings 8:9,21: "9. There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the Lord made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt." ... 21. "And there I have set a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord, which He made with our fathers when He brought them from the land of Egypt."

2 Chronicles 6:11: "And there I have set the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord, which He made with the sons of Israel."


In 2 Corinthians 3:2-11, the abolished Old Covenant was the 10 commandments!

C. Hebrews 8:7-13 speaks of the Old Covenant being replaced and v.13 says the same thing as 2 Cor. 3:11:

Hebrews 8:7-13
7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8. For finding fault with them, He says,
"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9. NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10. FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11. AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12. FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13. When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.


D. There is one Old Covenant (Law) that was never divided up by the Jews and Apostles, as the moderns do, into moral, ceremonial, judicial, etc. categories, wherein they argue that this or that part has been done away. The writers of the bible knew of no such divisions.

The Ten Commandments and ceremonial laws are mixed together with no distinction in Leviticus 19:1-37
The Ten Commandments are referred to as "statutes", "ordinances", "commandments", "judgements", and "testimonies" without distinction in Deuteronomy 5:1-6:25. Deuteronomy 5:2 refers to the Ten Commandments as the covenant.

E. Paul said of the "old" law and "new" law:

1 Corinthians 9:20-21: "20. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21. to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

From which we conclude:
1. Paul is not under the Law of the Jews (Old Covenant, which included the Ten Commandments)
2. Paul is not without law.
3. Paul is under a different law.
4. Paul is under the Law of Christ

Romans 7:1-7:
1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released (#2673) from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6. But now we have been released from the Law, (#2673) having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Conclusion:
1. We have been released from the Law.
2. We are adulterers if we are under both the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ simultaneously (v. 3).
2. The Law Paul had in mind included the Ten Commandments, "You shall not covet" (v. 7).
F. The Old Covenant Law, including the Ten Commmandments, Is Fulfilled in the Law of Christ

Romans 13:8-10:
8. Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10. Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law

G. The Old Covenant, including the Ten Commandments was nailed to the cross:

Colossians 2:13-14:
13. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14. having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

H. There is not one statement in the New Testament that changes the Sabbath to Sunday. We are not obliged to keep the Sabbath; and it was as much a part of the Ten Commandments as any of the other nine.

I. Nothing in the life, death or ministry of Christ made any part of the laws of ancient Israel (including the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic covenant) applicable to the Church. To the extent any of those laws are binding on gentile nations today, they must be independently found to be a part of the universal law of nature.

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. (pleroo)]

Matthew 1:21-23 (NKJV) "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins." 22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled (pleroo) which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."

Matthew 2:15 (NKJV) and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled (pleroo) which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."

Matthew 2:17 (NKJV) Then was fulfilled (pleroo) what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying:

Matthew 2:23 (NKJV) And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled (pleroo) which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene."

Matthew 26:56 (NKJV) "But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled (pleroo)." Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.

All was fulfilled in Christ.

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TheEditor
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Re: The Torah is central to Judaism

Post by TheEditor » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:16 am

@Doug,

Glad to hear it. Miracles do happen. :lol:

@Jacob,

Homer has done a more thorough job than I would have.

@Homer,

Excellent post. :)

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: The Torah is central to Judaism

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:03 pm

Homer wrote:E. Paul said of the "old" law and "new" law:

1 Corinthians 9:20-21: "20. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21. to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

From which we conclude:
1. Paul is not under the Law of the Jews (Old Covenant, which included the Ten Commandments)
2. Paul is not without law.
3. Paul is under a different law.
4. Paul is under the Law of Christ
The NKJV says Paul or we are under the Law toward Christ or under the law toward Christ, as believers. We are not without the law of God. I don't understand why you say the Law of the Jews. I would say the Law (Torah) or the Law of Moses either being or referring to the Law of God. Certainly the Jews or Israel were or are to observe God's Law given to the nation of Israel through the prophet Moses.
Romans 7:1-7:
1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released (#2673) from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6. But now we have been released from the Law, (#2673) having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Conclusion:
1. We have been released from the Law.
2. We are adulterers if we are under both the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ simultaneously (v. 3).
2. The Law Paul had in mind included the Ten Commandments, "You shall not covet" (v. 7).
F. The Old Covenant Law, including the Ten Commmandments, Is Fulfilled in the Law of Christ
I see nothing about being adulterers by observing God's Law. Then what might be important to you is understanding or finding out what the word fulfill or fulfilled means.
All was fulfilled in Christ.
Christ fulfilled prophecy. It is an interest of mine if any prophecy was yet to be fulfilled even after His ascension.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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Homer
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Re: The Torah is central to Judaism

Post by Homer » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:03 pm

Hi Jacob,

You wrote:
I see nothing about being adulterers by observing God's Law. Then what might be important to you is understanding or finding out what the word fulfill or fulfilled means.
I agree it is important to observe God's law, but what is God's law for us, the Law of Christ or the Law of Moses? The LOM was given to the people who God brought out of Egypt. No gentile, as far as I can recall, was ever accused of breaking it.

The law was given for a purpose - to bring us to Messiah. That has been accomplished.

Moses body has been buried and hidden. Some folks never give up trying to dig him up.

Be blessed!

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