an lds on: By What Authority?

Jill
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Post by Jill » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:06 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:04 pm

? I read that you were LDS at one point as well as having been SDA, and some other groups as well. Wow ! You are presently Evangelical yes?
No never LDS
yes a child SDA
until athiest (for 20 minutes)
then agnostic (mistakenly termed)
until the seeker
seeker
and seeker
pursued the search
until today and forever
a follower of Jesus Christ.

I was wrong to leave Jesus at the age of 18, thinking He was a deception.

For over 20 years, I studied mainstream and fringe Christian denominations, major and some minor eastern religions and a plethora of pagan philosophies. I was wrong.

As a young adult in the '70's, I searched within evangelical groups but believing I was going to hell, I left.

As my adult years continued, I studied many religions---some for longer periods of time than others. I never "became" any of the religions and philosophies that I studied. I was what I termed, eclectic, always seeking the truth, always wondering where the truth really was.

I admit that my studies grieved the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus' sacrifice for me. Now that I understand the Bible to say that I am forgiven, I pray that my past will be used by the power of His Spirit to lead others to Jesus Christ.

(I am not assuming anything about the reader. If you are already in Jesus, my prayer is that you remain with Him. If you do not already know and love Him, I rest my hope upon the Grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ who is coming to you.) I Peter 1:13 paraphrased

The overarching question for the seeker of truth is to know "By What Authority" this word speaks into ones' life.

The answer to the "By What Authority" question is the foundation, cornerstone and covering for every other answer.

If we seek truth on deceptive paths, we become entangled in a web of lies--sometimes intermingled with some truth--but we will only discern spirits, truth and obedient thoughts with one overarching answer to the "By What Authority" answer. There is only one answer. There is absolute truth. It is our treasure.
Will the KJV I use become a problem, and at what point for the LDS with the Evangelicals, do you know?
The New King James Version is the closest translation to the original languages that I have available to me, except perhaps the KJV and as long as we keep in mind that the words in italics within the NKJV are inserted for the contemporary reader's clarification, we may proceed to read the NKJV with the Holy Spirit's guidance. The NKJV is my favorite, although I am fascinated to read original wording and alternate possible definitions, thus my interest in studies such as what Paidan posted my first week upon this forum.
May I let you know at what points the book of mormon begins to limit me, and not that I should attempt to convince you of it.


Yes, what would you like people to know and believe about the Book of Mormon? and yes, I am interested to know "at what point the Book of Mormon begins to limit...
my I suggest addressing some of the problems presented by "Universal Trinitarianism" as the definitive for christianity as we know it today.


Yes, because this topic is important to you, it is to me too. May I hear your introduction (on this thread or would you like to lead me to another one)? After considering your input, I will share my viewpoint.

John 17:23 sister! :)
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

Jill
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Post by Jill » Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:18 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:46 pm

How are we doing?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I think we're doing great! :lol:

Let me think about the rest of your post and then, I'll get back with you....
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

Jill
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Post by Jill » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:28 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:56 am

(Internet connectivity issues last night...sorry for the delay...I purchased a CricKet connect card, modem. Please, if anyone wants to warn me away from this device/company, now is the time because I can only return it with a full return by Friday the 27th. Thank you for your advice!)

Hi Karen,
Now, in order to be a "follower of Jesus Christ", one must have come across a copy of a New Testament and read it for themselves. If by hearing only, there will be what I call "teachings" now, intermixed with the text. The New Testament would be the only place for anyone, including the non-LDS, to be able to come across the name of Jesus Christ in context, in the manuscripts in english that we all now have. I am in agreement on this detail. That the name Jesus Christ can only be found in this particular volume of text. Only. So as to "By What Authority", that name can only be found in one place as a "followable" item, and that is in what we call "The New Testament". The wording and which documents it includes in this unique collection of manuscripts, will be all that we have to go on as to the "absolute truth", as close as the translators are able to come, into the english, from whatever copies they are translating from, which are left from what the Roman Catholic Church relinquished into the public sector. Most of these copies are stored at Alexandria N. Africa (Egypt), Greece, and maybe somewhere else. I have both a KJV and a NASV. Let me know when the KJV and the NKJV conflict.
I wonder why you mention the KJV and the NKJV conflict. Can you explain? Has someone confronted you about your choice? I’ll tell you why I choose the NKJV first and the KJV second. First, I want to read the original languages but not knowing Hebrew or Greek, I have to settle for English. I want the closest to the original language as possible yet, KJV seems removed from my common vernacular, so I choose NKJV remembering the italics are not in the KJV. There have been times when I studied with another and we set several translations out before us. Then as we read scripture, we would read the same scripture in several translations so we could compare and contrast the apparent meanings. On other occasions, I have used the Strongs, but I admit not that often. I want to do more of this though. Some translations used besides KJV and NKJV are NIV, NAS and even occasionally The Message, and others. (not the JW translation because of John 1:1-6 mistake and other mistakes too) I don’t have any problems with KJV and NKJV. Hopefully someday you and I may go line upon line to learn precept upon precept. Then, we may see a time when we have to divide the word to keep it true to the author’s intent.
Most of these copies are stored at Alexandria N. Africa (Egypt), Greece, and maybe somewhere else.
You mentioned where the oldest copies of the New Testament are stored. I imagine Christians and non-Christians alike have kept track of the ancient documents—both scripture and non-scriptural historical records. When non-Christians acknowledge the historicity of the New Testament (and Jesus) it is reassuring because it provides evidence to the fact that we are searching through writings that are based upon real life events that took place. I hope someone on this forum can tell us how many non-scriptural references there are about Jesus and/or the New Testament, but here is one that I found:

In the book entitled “The Book of Jesus” the Editor, Calvin Miller, quotes Flavius Josephus, a non-Christian historian living at the same time Jesus did. Josephus wrote, “About this time lived Jesus, a wise man, if it be proper to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works,--a teacher of such men…He was the Christ. And when Pilate…condemned him to the cross…he appeared to them alive again on the third day; the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things…and the sect of Christians, so named after him, are not extinct to this day.”

Howard Marshall says in "Eerdman’s Handbook to the Bible" (pg. 468) that “the passage (speaking of Josephus' report) may have been tampered with by later Christian scribes…but is probably genuine in essentials."

Karen, if you or anyone else reading this knows about the credibility of Calvin Miller and/or Howard Marshall, I would like to hear from you on this. I would like to know if Josephus really wrote the above quote.

Where are the earliest copies of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price and Mormon Doctrine?
Now, in order to be a "follower of Jesus Christ", one must have come across a copy of a New Testament and read it for themselves. If by hearing only, there will be what I call "teachings" now, intermixed with the text. The New Testament would be the only place for anyone, including the non-LDS, to be able to come across the name of Jesus Christ in context, in the manuscripts in english that we all now have. I am in agreement on this detail. That the name Jesus Christ can only be found in this particular volume of text. Only. So as to "By What Authority", that name can only be found in one place as a "followable" item, and that is in what we call "The New Testament". The wording and which documents it includes in this unique collection of manuscripts, will be all that we have to go on as to the "absolute truth"
I think you are right that inspired scriptural guidance to follow Jesus is located in the New Testament. However, I also think believers like to see history bear out the fact that Jesus really lived—even non=believers recognize Jesus as a real person in history based upon historical records. Further, the prophesies in the Old Testament were substantial in convincing those living at Jesus’ birth that He is the Messiah. For example, Simeon (Luke 2:25,26) recognized Jesus as the Messiah because he read the Old Testament (Is 52:10; Is 42:6 and others) so when the Holy Spirit revealed “the Lord’s Christ,” Simeon could see the truth. It is important to tie the New Testament to the Old Testament because the OT bears evidence to the truth of the NT.

To substantiate the authority of the BoM, D & C, PGP, and MD, I would like to see these same types of evidence, i.e. secular historical records, early copy locations, and fulfilled prophesy.

I agree with you that we find the New Testament to be the only place where we can learn to follow Jesus Christ. However, I thought the D&C, PGP and MD mentioned Jesus, but maybe not since you seemed to speak of the NT as our only scripture. To clarify, are you saying that teachings about Jesus are not in the BoM, D&C, PGP and MD? It has been a decade since I read any portions of these books so I have forgotten much of the contents. Thank you...
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

Jill
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Post by Jill » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:12 pm

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Homer
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by Homer » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:24 pm

Karen wrote:
I use the KJV. It's been a classic. It supposedly was done in 1600 England, and it is devoid of the bias of present day denominationalism.
Old King James appears to have been a bit biased himself. He forbade the translators from translating certain words from Greek into English; thus we have the words baptism and church, which obscure the meaning of the Greek baptisma and ekklesia respectively. And following the KJV, most modern translations have perpetuated these errors. The KJV is not without its problems.

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:52 pm

Please be a bit careful on quoting, and re-wording things in previous posts, and inserting foriegn ideas and terminology, but all in all, the KJV and the NKJV may not be that much of a problem.
Can you give me an example to help me understand your suggestion? :( Thank you.
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:28 am

Karen wrote:
Please be a bit careful on quoting, and re-wording things in previous posts, and inserting foriegn ideas and terminology, but all in all, the KJV and the NKJV may not be that much of a problem.
Selah wrote:
Can you give me an example to help me understand your suggestion? Thank you
Karen,

I may have an example of incorrect quoting because the post just before the one you are reading contains the quote you wrote except it does not say "Karen wrote:" (In this post, I wrote those words in above...) For some reason I thought the forum software knew to insert authorship such as "so and so wrote:" as part of the "quote" function. Apparently, I was wrong and a person has to write in who wrote the portion of text being quoted? I am new to forums so my understanding of the technical protocol is limited. If the example I have mentioned above does not fit within the suggestion that you made for me, then would you please tell me what you meant by your suggestion, perhaps by telling me the example that caused you to give me the suggestion in the first place? Thank you. I am sorry for any error in communication. I assure you that it was not intentional.

selah*
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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