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By jriccitelli
The God of the Hebrews severly condemns Sorcery, divining and magic practices throughout scripture. The magicians of Pharoahs court, Jezebel, Manasseh, Simon the magician, etc., all are condemned. Gods Word goes into exhaustive detail and effort to show that it is not by mans effort or wisdom, as is sorcery, it is when God is called upon and trusted in for guidance, that truth comes. Those that seek 'Him' in Spirit and truth. Moses allready had been spoken to by God, the staff was a common object carried by many shepherds and people in the wilderness, for livestock, for walking, a wilderness weapon. The staff was not a diving rod, neither was aarons rod.The staff miracle was one of 'many', miracles shown to Moses, as was his hand turning leprous, then the water turning to blood, frogs, flies, locusts all these things were done by God as direct insults and challanges to the sorcery, magic and creature worship of the Egyptians. Moses himself attributes all power unto God and recieves no credit for personal abilities or power to objects such as a staff. The staff was no more a source of divining than the lampstand, the showbread, or the Ark itself. The staff of Aaron was a memorial, a witness (As Jacobs pile of stones) to Gods working. The two stones on the breastplate that Aaron wore were a 'memorial' to Gods judgements (Exodus 28:12 "You shall put the two stones on the shoulder pieces of the ephod, [as] stones of memorial for the sons of Israel, and Aaron shall bear their names before the LORD on his two shoulders for a memorial) A reminder to the Holiness of God and His guidance over the heart of of Aaron (Ex.28:30) The choosing and making of the garmets and breastplate of Aaron fills a whole chapter of Exodus and comes directly from Gods mouth to Moses and is constructed and made in accordance with Gods direct words. As was the tabernacle, screen, bronze alter etc. Joseph found his seer stone while digging in a hole for gold, and Olivers rod was a rod used 'for the purpose of divining'. Niether had a divine order to use such common objects and both objects were being at the time used for money digging, a little different than Moses and Aaron. It does not fit that God who equates mediums and diviners with Demons and witchcraft, to use such a person to restore revelation and truth. Especially after condemning practicioners of such among His people to death. There is so many verses condemning participation in sorcery, because it is the art of communing with demons, and many recieve revelation and messages in this way, just as Mannaseh;
2 Kings 21:6 He made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD provoking. Revelation 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." So how can you trust the Book of Mormon? Joseph Smith carried a 'Jupiter tailsman during his time as 'prophet'', it was even on his person at his death as Emma has testified.
jriccitelli
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon
by mkprr on Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:27 pm
I agree with you 100 percent that witchcraft, divination, and sorcery and magic are damnable sins. The Book of Mormon and D & C and the angel Moroni are also in agreement with that.
What source documents can you provide to back up your claim about Joseph Smiths use of a Jupiter Talisman? I don't ask that to be rude or accuse you of fabricating a story. I have looked into it in the past so I know there are some reasons why people believe he did but I didn't find any of the sources to be credible. I want you to know that I appreciate you taking time to talk with me and am certainly more than willing to look into it again. I would find it difficult to harmonize Joseph Smith's involvement in magic with his calling as prophet if he never repented of it.
Let me know what you can find. I have been searching the internet as well but can't find any accounts from Emma to back up this claim, the only account I can find is of her adopted son who was 15 when she died, who was never affiliated with the LDS church as far as I can tell, and who was trying to make money by selling items that he claimed were Joseph Smiths over 50 years after Emma had passed away. His testimony of what Joseph had on him at his death contradicts the legal documents made by the attorney who inspected his body at his death listing what Joseph had on him when he was killed. As far as I can tell, there are also no accounts by any first hand witnesses of Joseph Smith using this Jupiter Talisman. I of course haven't read all there is to be read on the subject though and am interested in learning more.
mkprr
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:39 am
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Re: How can you trust the Book of Momon
by jriccitelli on Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:31 am
I possess a nice collection of reference materials 'in storage' now while I finish remodeling our home, my 'memory' says I've seen enough evidence. I have researched 'alot' of these claims and manuscripts, I even went to Utah in search of books and information. But I found Utah Lighthouse ministry is a 'lighthouse' of resources they are credible and honest. There is some more info. than I can locate now on Josephs 'Tailsman' medallion but this address by Reed Durham is real, and hard to dispute; this is from Utah lighthose ministrys online resources;
Dr. Reed Durham, who was director of the LDS Institute of Religion at the University of Utah and president of the Mormon History Association. Dr. Durham, apparently not realizing the devastating implications of his discovery, announced this important find in his presidential address before the Mormon History Association on April 20, 1974; ...All available evidence suggests that Joseph Smith the Prophet possessed a magical Masonic medallion, or talisman, which he worked during his lifetime and which was evidently on his person when he was martyred...(Mormon Miscellaneous, published by David C. Martin, vol. 1, no. 1, October 1975, pp. 14-15).
I think there is more than enough evidence that Joseph was very involved in the clearly decietful practice of money digging, that is taking some poor saps money and 'pretending' to be able to divine buried treasure on their property. I would think Joseph was 'simply pretending' without the use of divining but his use of peepstones also seems to indicate a strong belief in being 'led by these objects'. Oliver, Martin Harris, Pratt and others in Josephs company also were involved in divining and money digging. Joseph was arrested and tried for money digging in 1826. 'Moses and Paul' were not involved with the occult, or 'deceit for gain' enterprises. Paul and Moses zeal for God caused them to go to far, and commit murder, yet it seems that it was 'because' of their zeal that God choose them, not despite it. The 'main objective' of the occult is to 'decieve', to give false messages, horoscopes, palm readers, crystal balls, etc.,are used as 'mediums' to demonic messages. Why would 'God' break His own Law to (supposedly) reinstall His own Law? Would God be guilty of seeking a medium? For God has said; As for the person who turns to mediums and to spiritists, to play the harlot after them, I will also set My face against that person and will cut him off from among his people. You shall consecrate yourselves therefore and be holy, for I am the LORD your God. (Leviticus 20:6)
jriccitelli
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA