One more thing...you can download sermons for free on the Mars Hill Website.
I listened to a fascinating one Bell gave about Yom Kippur.
Rob Bell and Mars Hill
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_Deep Stuff
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Heaven & Hell
Rob Bell on Heaven and Hell from David DeWitt's article:
Bell says this: “For Jesus, heaven and hell were present realities. Ways of living we can enter into here and now. He talked very little of life beyond this one … When people use the word hell, what do they mean? They mean a place, an event, a situation absent of how God desires things to be. Famine, debt, oppression, loneliness, despair, death, slaughter—they are all hell on earth—For Jesus, this new kind of life in Him is not about escaping this world but about making it a better place, here and now. The goal for Jesus isn’t to get into heaven. The goal is to get heaven here” (pp. 147-48, emphasis his).
I’m not sure what Jesus he is talking about, but it sure isn’t the One in the Bible. (And, by the way, who cares how people use the word hell.) Jesus said, I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:11-12). … whoever says, “You fool,” shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell … for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell” (Matthew 5:29-30). But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him” (Luke 12:5). In my Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:2-3). Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment … (Luke 16:22-23; see also Matthew 19:29; 25:46; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; John 3:15-18 ).
Eternal life in heaven or hell is not just a footnote in the New Testament. The phrase “eternal life” occurs 41 times. The apostles spoke about the destruction of this present earth and the significance of seeing heaven and hell as a non-earth afterlife. Peter wrote, But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. … But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13). John says, Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away (Revelation 21:1). Paul described the future of believers, saying, For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). He also wrote, If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied (1 Corinthians 15:19).
Does that sound like Bell’s statement: “The goal for Jesus isn’t to get into heaven. The goal is to get heaven here”? I know of not one single passage where Christ or the apostles commanded or suggested that we fix the world. Of course we should take care of the world we live in, just as we should take care of our car—but not to make it something eternally important. Of course we should have compassion for, and do everything we can for, the poor and suffering, but we should not think that it will bring heaven to earth.
Bell says this: “For Jesus, heaven and hell were present realities. Ways of living we can enter into here and now. He talked very little of life beyond this one … When people use the word hell, what do they mean? They mean a place, an event, a situation absent of how God desires things to be. Famine, debt, oppression, loneliness, despair, death, slaughter—they are all hell on earth—For Jesus, this new kind of life in Him is not about escaping this world but about making it a better place, here and now. The goal for Jesus isn’t to get into heaven. The goal is to get heaven here” (pp. 147-48, emphasis his).
I’m not sure what Jesus he is talking about, but it sure isn’t the One in the Bible. (And, by the way, who cares how people use the word hell.) Jesus said, I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:11-12). … whoever says, “You fool,” shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell … for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell” (Matthew 5:29-30). But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him” (Luke 12:5). In my Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:2-3). Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment … (Luke 16:22-23; see also Matthew 19:29; 25:46; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; John 3:15-18 ).
Eternal life in heaven or hell is not just a footnote in the New Testament. The phrase “eternal life” occurs 41 times. The apostles spoke about the destruction of this present earth and the significance of seeing heaven and hell as a non-earth afterlife. Peter wrote, But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. … But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13). John says, Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away (Revelation 21:1). Paul described the future of believers, saying, For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). He also wrote, If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied (1 Corinthians 15:19).
Does that sound like Bell’s statement: “The goal for Jesus isn’t to get into heaven. The goal is to get heaven here”? I know of not one single passage where Christ or the apostles commanded or suggested that we fix the world. Of course we should take care of the world we live in, just as we should take care of our car—but not to make it something eternally important. Of course we should have compassion for, and do everything we can for, the poor and suffering, but we should not think that it will bring heaven to earth.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Les Wright
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Jim,
The Lord's prayer can be interpreted as an invitation for the Kingdom of God (or Heaven) to be experienced here on earth. And in John 14:2-3, Jesus is speaking of the church, his body when he refers to the dwelling place, not heaven (I believe this subject is posted elsewhere in the forum).
We just watched another one of Rob's video's at our church meeting and I was really impressed and encouraged. Now, I don't think I agree with everything Rob said either, but I think he contrasts ideas to stress points.. sort of like how Jesus said, I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword. He did come to bring both... but at that time, he was stressting the negative aspect.
Anyhow.. thats another 2 cents from me
Les
The Lord's prayer can be interpreted as an invitation for the Kingdom of God (or Heaven) to be experienced here on earth. And in John 14:2-3, Jesus is speaking of the church, his body when he refers to the dwelling place, not heaven (I believe this subject is posted elsewhere in the forum).
We just watched another one of Rob's video's at our church meeting and I was really impressed and encouraged. Now, I don't think I agree with everything Rob said either, but I think he contrasts ideas to stress points.. sort of like how Jesus said, I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword. He did come to bring both... but at that time, he was stressting the negative aspect.
Anyhow.. thats another 2 cents from me
Les
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Deep Stuff
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Thanks for the input Les. The video that we watched at Promise Keepers was very impressive too and had a lot of good stuff in it. A lot of things are that way.
Do you agree with this statement? “The goal for Jesus isn’t to get into heaven. The goal is to get heaven here”
On page 147 Bell says, "He (Jesus) talked very little of the life beyond this one..."
And on page 150 of Velvet Elvis he says, "A Christian is not someone who expects to spend forever in heaven there. A Christian is someone who anticipates spending forever here, in a new heaven that comes to earth. The goal isn't escaping this world but making this world the kind of place God can come to."
Did you read all of DeWitt's article? The things he points out on Bell's take on truth, the canonization of the Bible, whether or not it matters if the biblical authors lied about the virgin birth in order to get more followers, universalism, faith in one's self, sin - how it's defined and whether or not we need to confess and repent of it, etc.?
Do you agree with this statement? “The goal for Jesus isn’t to get into heaven. The goal is to get heaven here”
On page 147 Bell says, "He (Jesus) talked very little of the life beyond this one..."
And on page 150 of Velvet Elvis he says, "A Christian is not someone who expects to spend forever in heaven there. A Christian is someone who anticipates spending forever here, in a new heaven that comes to earth. The goal isn't escaping this world but making this world the kind of place God can come to."
Did you read all of DeWitt's article? The things he points out on Bell's take on truth, the canonization of the Bible, whether or not it matters if the biblical authors lied about the virgin birth in order to get more followers, universalism, faith in one's self, sin - how it's defined and whether or not we need to confess and repent of it, etc.?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Hi Jim,
I have not yet had time to read or listen to Rob Bell. It sounds like there are things he teaches that I would take issue with.
Not having read his statement in context, I can't say whether I agree with him on the idea that Jesus didn't talk much about the life after this one. If he means that Jesus did not focus on our need to be prepared for the judgment, and to plan for an eternity in the presence of God, I would disagree with his statement. Of course, Jesus spoke much of eternal life, and the need to act now in such a way as to be rewarded in the resurrection.
On the other hand, if Bell is only saying that Jesus never gave much in the way of a description of what awaits us in eternity, I would be inclined to agree with him. I don't find any graphic description of heaven in the Bible (except, perhaps, in the symbolic visions of Revelation). But then, I have never felt a need to sustain in my mind a clear picture of what eternity will be like in order to motivate me to live for that future age.
As for the following quote:
"A Christian is not someone who expects to spend forever in heaven there. A Christian is someone who anticipates spending forever here, in a new heaven that comes to earth. The goal isn't escaping this world but making this world the kind of place God can come to."
I believe the first two sentences agree with scripture (though, to be perfectly scriptural, I would replace the words "new heaven" with "new Jerusalem"). The last sentence, as it stands, without context, does not correctly express my understanding of the subject.
If Bell is talking about "cleaning up" or "fixing" this world, I do not follow his theology here.
If, however, he is merely saying that we are to be experiencing the kingdom of God (as defined in Romans 14:17) in this life, as well as the next, then he is not speaking contrary to my own convictions on the subject.
If (a third possibility) he is saying that through evangelism and disciple-making, we are to get as close as we possibly can to saving the whole world before Jesus comes, again I would be in agreement.
In other words, I would need more context before being able to express agreement or disagreement with the statements cited above.
I have not yet had time to read or listen to Rob Bell. It sounds like there are things he teaches that I would take issue with.
Not having read his statement in context, I can't say whether I agree with him on the idea that Jesus didn't talk much about the life after this one. If he means that Jesus did not focus on our need to be prepared for the judgment, and to plan for an eternity in the presence of God, I would disagree with his statement. Of course, Jesus spoke much of eternal life, and the need to act now in such a way as to be rewarded in the resurrection.
On the other hand, if Bell is only saying that Jesus never gave much in the way of a description of what awaits us in eternity, I would be inclined to agree with him. I don't find any graphic description of heaven in the Bible (except, perhaps, in the symbolic visions of Revelation). But then, I have never felt a need to sustain in my mind a clear picture of what eternity will be like in order to motivate me to live for that future age.
As for the following quote:
"A Christian is not someone who expects to spend forever in heaven there. A Christian is someone who anticipates spending forever here, in a new heaven that comes to earth. The goal isn't escaping this world but making this world the kind of place God can come to."
I believe the first two sentences agree with scripture (though, to be perfectly scriptural, I would replace the words "new heaven" with "new Jerusalem"). The last sentence, as it stands, without context, does not correctly express my understanding of the subject.
If Bell is talking about "cleaning up" or "fixing" this world, I do not follow his theology here.
If, however, he is merely saying that we are to be experiencing the kingdom of God (as defined in Romans 14:17) in this life, as well as the next, then he is not speaking contrary to my own convictions on the subject.
If (a third possibility) he is saying that through evangelism and disciple-making, we are to get as close as we possibly can to saving the whole world before Jesus comes, again I would be in agreement.
In other words, I would need more context before being able to express agreement or disagreement with the statements cited above.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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_Les Wright
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Jim,
Thanks for your reponse. I have not read any of DeWitt's article. In the video I saw Rob said something like, 'salvation is important, but' which erked me a bit.
Not being very acquainted with all or Rob's views, but having watched 2 videos now, I think he may have just been trying to make a point versus saying that 'our eternal salvation is not important.'
Steve. If you find the time to become aquainted with Rob's views, please share your thoughts.
Tx
In Him,
Les
Thanks for your reponse. I have not read any of DeWitt's article. In the video I saw Rob said something like, 'salvation is important, but' which erked me a bit.
Not being very acquainted with all or Rob's views, but having watched 2 videos now, I think he may have just been trying to make a point versus saying that 'our eternal salvation is not important.'
Steve. If you find the time to become aquainted with Rob's views, please share your thoughts.
Tx
In Him,
Les
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Hi all. I attended Mars Hill for about a year and am still involved in one of their "house churches". I left because I never heard any exhortation to study scripture, pray, know Jesus, etc... Week after week we were told to go be a "driving force of good in our communities" and that was all. I left believing it was just another shallow church that substituted the word "love" for "God" a little too often in order to be unoffensive. The converts they produce that I know know little of a personal savior although they all are actively involved in their communities trying to be a driving force for good. You'll be hard pressed to hear anything concerning sin or repentance or any sort of concrete theology stating an absolute. As we were leaving we learned that many of the other mature believers in our house church were having similar thoughts and were considering leaving for the same reasons. It'll be interesting to see what happens in the next few years as many churches are copying Mars' methods.
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_Blind Beggar
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Rob Bell is taking a more non-orthodox position on a number of topics lately. You can read more here:
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/200 ... d-out.html
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/200 ... d-out.html
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rob bell
rob bell made a video called "bull horn guy" that was going against street preachers, and really misrepresenting the majority of "sane" street preachers, and todd friel from way of the master made a rebuttal to his video, you can find both of them at http://www.youtube.com and just search for them
there is some truth from what rob bell says, but it isn't a complete truth, there are a lot of gaps
i'm not a big fan of his
but
another mars hill church that is awesome and not affiliated with rob bell is mark driscolls church in seattle, he was once in the whole emergent movement hooked up with brian mcclaren, but he saw the lack of biblical truth and got out of the movement, and now he has done a lot of work calling out the lies among the movement, that mars hill church is at
http://www.marshillchurch.org , he also has a podcast, and a very stable movement of the church in seattle
in Him alone,
Devin
there is some truth from what rob bell says, but it isn't a complete truth, there are a lot of gaps
i'm not a big fan of his
but
another mars hill church that is awesome and not affiliated with rob bell is mark driscolls church in seattle, he was once in the whole emergent movement hooked up with brian mcclaren, but he saw the lack of biblical truth and got out of the movement, and now he has done a lot of work calling out the lies among the movement, that mars hill church is at
http://www.marshillchurch.org , he also has a podcast, and a very stable movement of the church in seattle
in Him alone,
Devin
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in mans attempt to become wise... they became fools