Book review: Pagan Christianity

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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:04 pm

Danny,

I've known about Xenos for some time but have never visited it's "main campus" or house-meetings; they don't extend this far. A tad bit out of driving range. I've emailed them on some theological topics (again, some time ago). Thanks for linking to them, I haven't seen their site in a while.
Dennis McCullum wrote:We do find corporate worship implied in the injunction found in 1 Cor. 14:26 "What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification." But this passage in context is speaking about a participative meeting held in the home—a home church meeting. The home church was also the venue for the first century "love feast" according to early church sources, which included communion and worship.
I wonder how he verifies that Paul was speaking about house churches and not the whole church in Corinth(?): He might be right(?). I feel the whole church could have met in a large home of the well-to-do people in Corinth (which I think was a normal practice as I posted before). We don't know exactly how many Christians there were in Corinth in Paul's time, though it has been estimated at 150-200. Homes of the well-off in that period could accommodate that many people.

Btw, a "house church affiliation" in my town has their number and website in the yellow pages: 153 House Churches. I know one of the pastors personally and went on an Emmaus Walk retreat with him and to one of his home meetings. I might email him to see if he'd like to post here (we keep in touch by email but don't see one another often). He recently mentioned in an email he'd be open to discuss "emerging"...which I'm studying.

"153" links to: House Church Central.

I found both Xenos and HCC googling Bible & theology topics. They each have a lot of excellent articles on these (very good). I'm going to go look around more now @Xenos, :wink:
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_anothersteve
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Post by _anothersteve » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:28 pm

Danny Wrote
I think perhaps the model that works best in our culture (and seems to have Biblical precedent) is the scattered/gathered paradigm (aka "house-to-house and Solomon's Portico"). That is, the church meets in homes throughout the area but then those "house-churches" also come together for corporate public worship. The difference is in the emphasis. In this paradigm, the house-church is considered the primary "form" of ekklesia and the corporate public worship is secondary. The corporate public worship serves as an entry point for new people, but the goal is to get them into house-churches. The corporate public worship serves the house-churches, not vice-versa.
There is also a congregation that uses this philosophy in the area where I live. The teaching pastor has often said that “on Sunday morning you’re not doing “church”. Church happens when we turn the chairs towards each other.” The Sunday morning meetings are “seeker sensitive” and geared toward reaching out. The home church is where they consider church happens.

Here’s a statement from their website
Why Home Church?
At The Meeting House we strongly believe that being part of a small group (we call them "Home Churches") is a vital part of a well balanced spiritual diet.

In the days of the early Church most of the meetings happened in homes (Acts 2:46; Romans 16:5; 1 Corinthians 16:19; Colossians4:15), so being a part of a Home Church is not something we do in addition to church - it is Church in its purest form.

It is through Home Churches that each person can give and receive the best pastoral care and use their God-given gifts to the fullest. In Home Churches we can find opportunities to love each other in practical ways. Through Home Churches we can help each other to live out our faith with passion and we can challenge each other to grow deeper in our relationship with God.

We encourage you to join a Home Church of your choice, even if you can’t be there every week. When you do, you’ll become part of a small community of friends who can help you grow to your fullest potential.
Although the home churches are all following the same study, there is a fair amount of autonomy in each house church. Individual home churches have organized things like local outreaches to the poor, mission trips, spiritual retreats etc..on their own.

A long time friend of mine is leading one of the house churches and I’ve been attending for the last few weeks. The congregation is Anabaptist in their tradition so they don’t base their faith on any particular creed. I find this refreshing since it leads to honest and open discussion about various issues.

Oh ya…Danny and Rick, the teaching pastor is also an unashamed fan of NT Wright :wink:

Here's their site
http://www.themeetinghouse.ca/themeetin ... ?hls=10061
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:00 am

N.T. Wright, eh? Kew-EL, :!:

P.S. Danny,
I saw on Xenos' site that they just have teaching and evangelism in the big church (as opposed to a more 'formal worship'). This reminds me of something I said in a related discussion about "church" with some friends. I said, "If it were up to me, I'd rather have two songs tops, then a couple hours of non-stop solid Bible teaching. I need some 'meat' from the Word to take with me during the week!"

Other than this, I think what Xenos is doing is probably closer to how things actually developed from the N.T. times, ff., than other house church philosophies I've seen. (I doubt many claim to be 100% "exactly like" churches back then and probably give leeway for modern differences).

I'll check out your link, Steve.
I emailed my friend, Danny.
Thanks.
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:49 am

Hi Steve,

I perused the website of The Meetinghouse and really like what they're about. And they're Anabaptist (BiC), which appeals to me. I wish there was something like that here in the Seattle area.
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Post by _mattrose » Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:13 pm

I also treat the Sunday morning gathering differently than most people. In fact, I started a thread about that a long while back:

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=467
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Post by _mattrose » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:55 pm

Chapter 4: The Sermon
Viola points out that 'the sermon' is central to protestant worship services, but has no root in Scripture. It's not that Jesus and the Apostles didn't preach, it's that "there is a world of difference b/w the Spirit-inspired preaching and teaching described in the Bible and the contemporary sermon." In short, Viola rejects the Greco-Roman based contemporary sermon (routine, regulated, passive, prepared) in favor of biblical preaching (sporadic, informal, participative, spontaneous).

Reaction:
I have no problem with Viola's quest to make sermons more participative. But I do feel compelled to question many of Viola's premises in this chapter. First, he claims that many of the 'early church fathers' were recent pagan converts AND that this tainted their remarks. His argument seems to be that we can't take the writings of the early church as representative of the thinking of the early church. Well, there is certainly some truth to this premise, but it is also very convenient for Viola. It allows him to dismiss what evidence we have of the early church and fill the void with his 'house church' mindset. Second, I disagree with Viola's seeming assumption that a prepared sermon and a Spirit-led sermon are in contrast. Can't the Holy Spirit help us prepare and cultivate a message? Third, Viola continues his previous pattern of equating EXTRA-Biblical practices with UN-Biblical passages, except in this case the practice actually is quite Biblical! He ends with what I think is the most ridiculous question so far in the book: "How can a man preach a sermon on being faithful to the Word of God while he is preaching a sermon?" I reply, 'Quite easily!'
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Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'

I agree with the second part (se7en)

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_featheredprop
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Post by _featheredprop » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:34 pm

Viola lost me in this chapter.

As Matt noted Viola suggests that the contemporary sermon can be non-participative. I doubt that anyone would disagree. Viola also suggests that the present-day Protestant sermon is rooted in pagan practice. I have no reason to suspect that that is not the case. But that's where Viola and I part ways in this chapter.

Here is a snipet from a subtitle of the chapter "How Sermonizing Harms the Church"
..today's sermon is often impractical. Countless preachers speak as experts on that which they have never experienced... It lacks any practical value. Much is preached, but little ever lands...
I have heard many sermons from preachers who seem disconnected from the scriptures as well as those listening. But I have heard many, very many, sermons from godly preachers whose sermons did not lack "practical value" and that truly "landed." I was not "harmed" by those messages in any way. On the contrary, I was encouraged, comforted, and convicted.

In my opinion Viola's commitment to the theme of his book becomes his own blindspot in this chapter. Now, the next chapter is a different story!

peace,

dane
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Post by _mattrose » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:05 pm

Chapter 5: The Pastor
Viola argues that the contemporary office/role of the pastor puts him at the top of an organization that was meant to be an organism 'headed' only by Christ. He traces the development of the clergy/laity distinction from the early church through the Catholic priesthood and Protestant Reformation. The office of pastor provokes this distinction, limits participation of the whole body, limits Christ's headship & damages the 'pastor' himself. Viola indicates that the Anabaptists got things right, but were persecuted for it.

Reaction:
I wholly agree with Viola regarding the error of the clergy/laity distinction. A lot of the chapter resonated with me, and I say that as a salaried 'pastor.' I don't know how to applaud, any more than I have, his rebuke of the clergy/laity gap, so I'll go on to the things I found 'odd' in the chapter...

1. He seems to have a big problem with an official 'office,' but in my life I don't see much difference b/w an official 'office' and an unofficial 'role.'

2. He says the 'office' was a late development, but then says it started with Ignatius and lists his life as (35-107). That's pretty early! What's more, he says the 'one bishop' rule didn't catch on in other regions, but then the footnote lists a bunch of regions that it DID catch on in that early. This hurt his point in my opinion.

3. I didn't really like his treatment of 'ordination.' It seemed silly. Particularly this quote: "The word ordain in these passages does not mean to place into an office. It rather carries the idea of endorsing, affirming, and showing forth what has already been happening." In my experience, that's exactly what 'ordination' is! Maybe it is different in other denominations, but as a Wesleyan, I was only ORDAINED after I had been serving in ministry for several years and was 'recommended' by the congregation and by district leaders. Same thing with his statement of the laying on of hands.
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:40 pm

Matt wrote:He says the (pastoral) 'office' was a late development, but then says it started with Ignatius and lists his life as (35-107). That's pretty early!

What's more, he says the 'one bishop' rule didn't catch on in other regions, but then the footnote lists a bunch of regions that it DID catch on in that early. This hurt his point in my opinion.
Food for thought:
Eusebius wrote:History of the Church, Book 2,
Chapter 1 -- The Course Pursued by the Apostles After the Ascension of Christ.

1 First, then, in the place of Judas, the betrayer, Matthias,1 who, as has been shown was also one of the Seventy, was chosen to the apostolate. And there were appointed to the diaconate, for the service of the congregation, by prayer and the laying on of the hands of the apostles, approved men, seven in number, of whom Stephen was one. He first, after the Lord, was stoned to death at the time of his ordination by the slayers of the Lord, as if he had been promoted for this very purpose. And thus he was the first to receive the crown, corresponding to his name, which belongs to the martyrs of Christ, who are worthy of the meed of victory.

2 Then James, whom the ancients surnamed the Just on account of the excellence of his virtue, is recorded to have been the first to be made bishop of the church of Jerusalem. This James was called the brother of the Lord because he was known as a son of Joseph, and Joseph was supposed to be the father of Christ, because the Virgin, being betrothed to him, "was found with child by the Holy Ghost before they came together," as the account of the holy Gospels shows.

3 But Clement (of Alexandria, circa 180-215) in the sixth book of his Hypotyposes writes thus: "For they say that Peter and James and John after the ascension of our Saviour, as if also preferred by our Lord, strove not after honor, but chose James the Just bishop of Jerusalem."

History of the Church, Book 4,
Chapter 5 -- The Bishops of Jerusalem from the Age of Our Saviour To the Period Under Consideration
(First Fourteen Successors (till about 134 A.D.):
All Relatives of James/Jesus
)!

1The chronology of the bishops of Jerusalem I have nowhere found preserved in writing; for tradition says that they were all short lived. 2But I have learned this much from writings, that until the siege of the Jews, which took place under Adrian, there were fifteen bishops in succession there, all of whom are said to have been of Hebrew descent, and to have received the knowledge of Christ in purity, so that they were approved by those who were able to judge of such matters, and were deemed worthy of the episcopate. For their whole church consisted then of believing Hebrews who continued from the days of the apostles until the siege which took place at this time; in which siege the Jews, having again rebelled against the Romans, were conquered after severe battles. 3But since the bishops of the circumcision ceased at this time, it is proper to give here a list of their names from the beginning. The first, then, was James, the so-called brother of the Lord; the second, Symeon; the third, Justus; the fourth, Zacchaeus; the fifth, Tobias; the sixth, Benjamin; the seventh, John; the eighth, Matthias; the ninth, Philip; the tenth, Seneca; the eleventh, Justus; the twelfth, Levi; the thirteenth, Ephres; the fourteenth, Joseph; and finally, the fifteenth, Judas. 4These are the bishops of Jerusalem that lived between the age of the apostles and the time referred to, all of them belonging to the circumcision.

History of the Church 3:11:1-2
After the martyrdom of James (62AD) and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed (70AD), it is said that those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive) to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James. They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Savior.

History of the Church 4:22:4-5
The same author [i.e. Hegesippus (a very early Jewish Church historian, circa 110-180)] also describes the beginnings of the heresies which arose in his time, in the following words: "And after James the Just had suffered martyrdom, as the Lord had also on the same account, Symeon, the son of the Lord's uncle, Clopas, was appointed the next bishop. All proposed him as second bishop because he was a cousin of the Lord. Therefore, they called the Church a virgin, for it was not yet corrupted by vain discourses" (bold, mine).
Do Barna and Viola comment on any of this?

See also!!!
Evidence of the Jewish Background of the Early Church:
Jewish Leadership in the Early Church
(and Influence of the Synagogue, etc.)
by Dr. Ron Moseley


Btw, Moseley identifies each successor of James as "elders" in a singular sense (something like we'd say "a senior pastor"). While that's a separate discussion; I thought it noteworthy that Eusebius identified them as "bishops." Moseley has a lot of good information regardless of his ecclesiology.

In Acts 15, James suddenly "appears" as the final decision maker. Something like a "head elder, senior pastor"... or bishop....
Thanks, :)
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Post by __id_2627 » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:47 pm

Should we really expect Viola to comment on what every historian said about the structure of the early church? I found Viola tried to stick to what the Bible actually said about such things.

Don't you think that Eusebius was probably bent towards the structures that existed in his day when interpreting the structure of early century churches?

Shel
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