Excellent video on the Word of Faith movement

Post by **__id_2627** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:17 am

STEVE7150 wrote

healing may take a different kind of faith

If that is the case, then no one told us. There is no differentiating between different kinds of faith in scripture. If what you say is true, then I would think the apostles or Jesus would have seen it necessary to tell us. It is the kind of faith that saves you, that is the kind of faith that God can heal you through. So what kind of faith is it that saves you? When that is answered, then that is the kind of faith that is used for every spiritual endeavor. And apparently you don't need much of it to be pleasing to God, maybe the size of a mustard seed...?

Doesn't changing what faith is in salvation to something different in healing, make this kind of faith a work? Paul said that faith is not a work. In a lot of circles, I find that instead of faith producing works in love, faith in and of itself, becomes the work. The fact that we are talking about faith as something we do, makes me think we are on the wrong track.

TK wrote

1) Jesus healed everybody that came to him for healing.

At the pool of bethesda, there is no evidence that Jesus healed anyone else besides that one man.

Jesus also did not heal Lazarus.

Shel

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:30 am

I would think the apostles or Jesus would have seen it necessary to tell us. It is the kind of faith that saves you, that is the kind of faith that God can heal you through. So what kind of faith is it that saves you? When that is answered, then that is the kind

Shel, I think Jesus did tell us that there are different degrees of faith.
"Daughter your faith has healed you."
"Be it done unto you according to your faith."
"Ye of little faith."
"I have not seen faith like this anywhere in Israel."
And Paul said "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"

If faith comes by hearing, does it stop coming at a certain point?
Are we Arminians for salvation but Calvinists for strengthening our faith?
And yes building faith is a work, it absolutely is a work, because it takes an effort on our part.
Faith for salvation is not a work but building faith does take effort. So if effort is defined as work, then yes building faith is a work.

Post by **__id_2627** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:53 am

I think Jesus did tell us that there are different degrees of faith.

I completely agree with you, but you originally said a different kind of faith. No question faith can start off small and grow big. Yes, building faith may be a work(though I'm not sure about that), but the faith itself is not, which is where, I think, some of us have blurred the lines here. God is not so much pleased with the level of faith you have, he is pleased with the works that are produced through the little faith you may have. We are saved through trusting Him, abandoning and submitting ourselves to Him, and loving Him, that is faith. The more faith grows, the more trusting we are, the more abandoned and submitted we become, and the more in love we are with him. If that kind of faith gets me saved and in right relationship with the Father, then the lesser work of healing my body should be attained automatically with a lesser degree of faith than it took for salvation. Is healing so hard that we have to have much more faith than we had for our salvation?

Shel

Post by **_Michelle** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:54 am

Steve7150 wrote:If faith comes by hearing, does it stop coming at a certain point?
Are we Arminians for salvation but Calvinists for strengthening our faith?
And yes building faith is a work, it absolutely is a work, because it takes an effort on our part.
Faith for salvation is not a work but building faith does take effort. So if effort is defined as work, then yes building faith is a work.

Could you explain to me how you, Steve, do the work of building your faith?

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:04 am

And yet Paul says that even faith is a gift; it does not come from ourselves:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. - Eph. 2:8-10

I believe that the only "work" we can do to get more faith is to be open and receptive to God, so that more might be given to us. In terms of a "work", this is equivalent to holding out one's hands to receive a gift.

The real issue here though is that the word faith has a very different meaning to the WoF'ers, which in turn taints their entire theology. They see it as a force that we can control (and use to control God), not as purely a gift that we can only receive. I've known Christian Scientists and folks in the Science of Mind church and their approach is essentially the same (due to a common root). The difference is the words they use to describe this "force" that we can learn to manipulate.

Post by **__id_2627** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:16 am

I just wanted to add that even Jesus used faith interchangeably for salvation and healing.

Consider this passage in Matthew 9,
Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you."
And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, "This Man blasphemes!"
But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?
For which is easier, to say, "Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, "Arise and walk'?
But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."
And he arose and departed to his house.

The same faith that they came with for healing, Jesus used to declare the paralytic's salvation.

Shel

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:57 am

The same faith that they came with for healing, Jesus used to declare the paralytic's salvation.

That's true, yet in the case of the women with the blood disease she knew Jesus was the Messiah but it was'nt until she fought her way through the crowd to touch his garment that she was healed.
She WORKED to get through the crowd, she sought after Christ and she was healed.
Also in your case these guys believed Jesus was the Messiah also but they also made a great effort to reach him and to circumvent the crowd. Even cutting a hole through the roof to reach Jesus. That took a lot of work. (Mark 2.4).

Post by **__id_2627** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:03 am

STEVE7150,

Don't disagree with you one bit. He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Shel

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:30 pm

He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Hallelujah bro!

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:17 pm

I think there are three kinds of faith. Perhaps the first should not be called "faith" at all.

1. Blind Faith
This is the kind of faith people have when they want something to be true, but have no evidence of any kind that it is, in fact, true. For example, a mother believes her teenage son is "a good boy". When the police confront her with a crime the boy has committed, she responds, "No, no. Jack wouldn't do that. I just know he wouldn't. You must be mistaken."
This mother will not believe her son has committed the crime even when the evidence is right before her eyes. She places blind faith in her boy.

Some people's religious faith is like this. They believe something because they want it to be true. When I asked the pupils in a religious education class in an Ontario Public School to define the word "faith" [Don't be shocked. Religious education was mandatory in Ontario Public Schools 41 years ago], one pupil wrote: "Faith is believing in something you know isn't true."

2. Experimental Faith
This is kind of faith that a pilot exercises in an untried plane and so takes it up for its first flight. The pilot is "trying out" the plane. This is not "blind faith", for he has some reason to believe it will carry him safely; he knows that it was manufactured by a reliable company.

This is also the kind of faith a person inititially places in Christ before he knows Him. Perhaps, like C.S. Lewis, he is convinced by the evidence for the resurrection, that Christianity has a sound basis in fact. In any case, he "tries it" in the expectation that there may be something real to that about which he has heard, about having a relationship with Jesus.

3. Experiential Faith
Once he has flown the plane, the pilot has more faith in it than ever. Now he believes it is safe to fly. Now his faith in the plane is based on experience. Everyone exerts this kind of faith every day of their lives. We enter our cars expecting it to start. It has usually started in the past. We sit on a chair expecting it to support us. The chair has supported us in the past. Our faith in the chair is different from knowledge. We don't know the chair will support us. Once I saw a person sit in a chair, expecting it to hold him up, but the chair collapsed.

Once a person has placed his trust in Christ, and has experienced Him firsthand, he has even more faith in Him. This may be the meaning of the following statement by Paul.

For in [the gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed out of faith into faith; as it is written, "The righteous will live by faith." Romans 1:17

Perhaps "out of experimental faith into experiential faith".

Concerning Christ's words to the woman, "Your faith has made you well," it is probably a mistake to extend this to the idea that in all cases of divine healing it is one's faith who makes him well. It is well known that our minds work in amazing ways. That is why people in a control group often experience the same or similar positive results from taking a placebo as those who take the medicine meant to alleviate the condition. Often a person who believes he will be made well, will be made well. It seems his body produces substances which hastens his healing. This may have been the reason the woman who had faith was made well. In other cases recorded in the NT, the person's healing was a direct act of God unrelated to the person's faith.

I believe the faith we have in God is not a faith of a different order from that we exercise every day. The difference is the object in whom the faith is placed. I believe our faith does proceed from ourselves. I think many misunderstand Eph 2:8.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

I don't think "faith" is the referent of the word "this". Rather I think the referent is "grace". Grace is the gift of God. Indeed "gift" is inherent in the meaning of the word "grace".

Because I believe salvation from sin (real deliverance from sin, and not just a covering) is a process, I think that this deliverance comes from our coöperation with the grace of God. God will not deliver us from sin sovereignly. Not can we deliver ourselves by self-effort (not of works, lest anyone should boast). But God does the delivering when we coöperate with Him through faith.