Hey Steve,
On your Thursday broadcast you spoke to a lady who had questions in regards to JW’s and how to better answer some of their questions. You also mentioned that you too have on a number of occasions shared with JW’s. I’m just curious what your approach has been or what you try to gain when speaking to a JW (or even an LDS) because I know from many of your posts that there are some issues (deity of Christ for salvation) that it would seem may not be something that would be an immediate concern for you when sharing or trying to lead someone in their position to truth. Is the deity of Christ the first thing we should debate with them over (which is pretty much what I have always been taught) or do you take a different approach?
Erich <><
Steve’s approach w/ JW’s?
Steve’s approach w/ JW’s?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
-
_chriscarani
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:47 pm
- Location: Ft Collins, CO
Hello Eric,
I know your question was directed at Steve and I don’t intend to answer your question but I would like to share with you my experiences.
I recently had several exchanges with a JW couple who were extremely kind and open about most of their theological views. I asked them about Michael the Arch Angel being Jesus, their view of hell and of course the Trinity. We took each issue in order and they were actually willing to have an open view about the first issue and as we went their hold on the last two issues seemed to strengthen, especially the Trinity. He told me if I was set on the Trinity that there was really no wasting both of our time.
I gave him some literature on the subject, he told me he would read it, but he had held this view since childhood and it was not something he would change his mind on. I said the truth was what I was concerned with not unsound doctrine established by men and if they had evidence that the Trinity was not established by scripture I was willing to give on the subject.
I am a merely an infant in my understanding of the scriptures, so I studied the issue further and at great length. They did seem to have some interesting arguments, but after praying and coming across various scripture I told them I did not believe their view on the Trinity was sound. I told them I wasn’t interested in any further discussions and they were nothing but extremely polite about it and said that was fine.
The final scripture I found was in Philippians. After praying about it I flipped to a page in the book and found this passage. It seemed to explain it all to me.
Philippians2:5 NIV
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
I know your question was directed at Steve and I don’t intend to answer your question but I would like to share with you my experiences.
I recently had several exchanges with a JW couple who were extremely kind and open about most of their theological views. I asked them about Michael the Arch Angel being Jesus, their view of hell and of course the Trinity. We took each issue in order and they were actually willing to have an open view about the first issue and as we went their hold on the last two issues seemed to strengthen, especially the Trinity. He told me if I was set on the Trinity that there was really no wasting both of our time.
I gave him some literature on the subject, he told me he would read it, but he had held this view since childhood and it was not something he would change his mind on. I said the truth was what I was concerned with not unsound doctrine established by men and if they had evidence that the Trinity was not established by scripture I was willing to give on the subject.
I am a merely an infant in my understanding of the scriptures, so I studied the issue further and at great length. They did seem to have some interesting arguments, but after praying and coming across various scripture I told them I did not believe their view on the Trinity was sound. I told them I wasn’t interested in any further discussions and they were nothing but extremely polite about it and said that was fine.
The final scripture I found was in Philippians. After praying about it I flipped to a page in the book and found this passage. It seemed to explain it all to me.
Philippians2:5 NIV
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
WWMTLFSMM
Though the Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) are a heretical sect, and have bad doctrine, I consider their real problems to be primarily spiritual, more than doctrinal. I do desire to help them along to a better grasp of Christians theology, but this will not be fruitful without also (first?) addressing the spiritual roots of their heresy.
Like all cults, the Watchtower Society forbids freedom of thought among its members, and those trapped within the group are held in a spiritual bondage, kept in line by fear of rejection by the group, and fear of a God who is not very sympathetic toward those who deviate from their way of thinking and doing things.
My approach to JWs has changed over the years, as I have grown spiritually. Decades ago, I used to simply argue any point of doctrine with them that they were willing to argue about, all the while making sure that the trinity and deity of Christ received the greatest attention. I knew I was right and they were wrong, and there was nothing more important to me than getting them to acknowledge that point. I was usually friendly with them, but definitely going for the head, rather than the heart.
Then, one day, about twenty-five years ago, a friend of mine and I met a JW in a parking lot, and began talking with him. I launched into my regular debate mode, and clearly got nowhere with him. He was prepared for that. Then my friend began to speak to him. My friend said something like, "You know, you are all bound up in this ideology and fear of displeasing those with you in the Watchtower organizition, and you have been taught how to use the scriptures to defend the views of the group. But the void you sense in your heart, isn't filled with having the right doctrines and the right arguments. The dissatisfaction you are feeling is due to the absence of personal fellowship with your Maker, and that creates an emptiness you are trying to fill with religious concepts and duties..."
I don't remember all that my friend said, but as I listened, I sensed that my friend was coming at this from a different mentality than I was. He didn't quote any scripture, or attempt to engage the man doctrinally. I realized that he was speaking to the JW as if he was actually a person with spiritual needs, and not merely an opponent to conquer. What the man's ultimate response was after we left, I can't say, but I know that the experience was instructive for me.
My goal these days, in talking to JWs is to forget, as much as possible, that they are JWs, and deal with them as with any other person who needs God as I do. The label is not helpful. Never mind that they may spend the entire time of our encounter trying to convert me and prove certain doctrines to me. Behind all of that, there is a lost child who is alienated from his/her Father, who is blindly searching for the way back in the most spiritually sterile and unfulfilling manner, and is desperately afraid of being wrong. It is to the basic human need that every JW shares with every other human being that I wish to speak.
When the discussion turns to theology, I focus on Jesus Christ. Though the matter of the deity of Christ is more important than many others, it doesn't have to be the first thing to bring up. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the trinity is a heresy created by Roman Catholicism, and few things will shut them down to hearing you quicker than your jumping into that particular debate. That is a matter that can wait at least until after getting at least to first or second base in our dialogue.
Initially, what I want to communicate with them is that there is a God of grace who loves them and grieves to see them so fearful and hopeless. I want to communicate to them that it is God, through Jesus, to whom they need to relate—not an organization. A call to follow Jesus, without immediate theorizing about the nature of His divinity, was the first step for the early disciples, and seems like a good first step for JWs to make as well. If they keep following Him, they will learn, as the disciples did, that He is more than they have imagined. I want to encourage them to continue their journey of learning and to be teachable, rather than to find their security in some camp that is incapable of thinking outside their very small box. It is the spirit of the JW that I wish to reach.
I also believe it very necessary to see any encounters with JWs as a spiritual warfare. Heresies like those of the JWs arise from a deceptive spirit of antichrist. The JW is not the enemy in this battle. He/she is a prisoner-of-war, whom I have been commissioned to attempt to rescue. My fight is not against flesh and blood. As with all spiritual warfare, I believe it necessary to engage the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places on behalf of the person I am dealing with. Therefore, very directed prayer is mainly what I count upon, rather than argument.
Like all cults, the Watchtower Society forbids freedom of thought among its members, and those trapped within the group are held in a spiritual bondage, kept in line by fear of rejection by the group, and fear of a God who is not very sympathetic toward those who deviate from their way of thinking and doing things.
My approach to JWs has changed over the years, as I have grown spiritually. Decades ago, I used to simply argue any point of doctrine with them that they were willing to argue about, all the while making sure that the trinity and deity of Christ received the greatest attention. I knew I was right and they were wrong, and there was nothing more important to me than getting them to acknowledge that point. I was usually friendly with them, but definitely going for the head, rather than the heart.
Then, one day, about twenty-five years ago, a friend of mine and I met a JW in a parking lot, and began talking with him. I launched into my regular debate mode, and clearly got nowhere with him. He was prepared for that. Then my friend began to speak to him. My friend said something like, "You know, you are all bound up in this ideology and fear of displeasing those with you in the Watchtower organizition, and you have been taught how to use the scriptures to defend the views of the group. But the void you sense in your heart, isn't filled with having the right doctrines and the right arguments. The dissatisfaction you are feeling is due to the absence of personal fellowship with your Maker, and that creates an emptiness you are trying to fill with religious concepts and duties..."
I don't remember all that my friend said, but as I listened, I sensed that my friend was coming at this from a different mentality than I was. He didn't quote any scripture, or attempt to engage the man doctrinally. I realized that he was speaking to the JW as if he was actually a person with spiritual needs, and not merely an opponent to conquer. What the man's ultimate response was after we left, I can't say, but I know that the experience was instructive for me.
My goal these days, in talking to JWs is to forget, as much as possible, that they are JWs, and deal with them as with any other person who needs God as I do. The label is not helpful. Never mind that they may spend the entire time of our encounter trying to convert me and prove certain doctrines to me. Behind all of that, there is a lost child who is alienated from his/her Father, who is blindly searching for the way back in the most spiritually sterile and unfulfilling manner, and is desperately afraid of being wrong. It is to the basic human need that every JW shares with every other human being that I wish to speak.
When the discussion turns to theology, I focus on Jesus Christ. Though the matter of the deity of Christ is more important than many others, it doesn't have to be the first thing to bring up. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the trinity is a heresy created by Roman Catholicism, and few things will shut them down to hearing you quicker than your jumping into that particular debate. That is a matter that can wait at least until after getting at least to first or second base in our dialogue.
Initially, what I want to communicate with them is that there is a God of grace who loves them and grieves to see them so fearful and hopeless. I want to communicate to them that it is God, through Jesus, to whom they need to relate—not an organization. A call to follow Jesus, without immediate theorizing about the nature of His divinity, was the first step for the early disciples, and seems like a good first step for JWs to make as well. If they keep following Him, they will learn, as the disciples did, that He is more than they have imagined. I want to encourage them to continue their journey of learning and to be teachable, rather than to find their security in some camp that is incapable of thinking outside their very small box. It is the spirit of the JW that I wish to reach.
I also believe it very necessary to see any encounters with JWs as a spiritual warfare. Heresies like those of the JWs arise from a deceptive spirit of antichrist. The JW is not the enemy in this battle. He/she is a prisoner-of-war, whom I have been commissioned to attempt to rescue. My fight is not against flesh and blood. As with all spiritual warfare, I believe it necessary to engage the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places on behalf of the person I am dealing with. Therefore, very directed prayer is mainly what I count upon, rather than argument.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
-
_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
Very well said Steve. I'd like to mention that the WTS has IMO a conscience policy to dimish Christ which creates a vacuum and then the vacuum is filled with the WTS. As Steve said the average JW is indeed a prisoner of war. The more they understand the exaltation of Christ the clearer it will be to them that the WTS is not needed in their life.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
-
_Benjamin Ho
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:16 am
- Location: Singapore
I thought Steve's answer reflects accurately what the Apostle Paul had said:
Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
2 Tim 2:23-26 (ESV)
Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
2 Tim 2:23-26 (ESV)
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Grace and peace,
Benjamin Ho
Benjamin Ho