STEVE7150, this is a interesting observation. But that is a good example of God interveening and shuting Zechariahs mouth becuse of what he said and not the devil.
The proff texts used for this dotorin are taken out of context.
I have no doubt that God punnishes people for things they say or do. He even allows satan to do that dirty work for him.
The problem is when these faith teachers like Kenneth Hagin start to teach that there is power in our words.
They tell people that their words can get them what they want. This is putting faith in Man and not God.
It is true that when we pray to God with our words according to HIS will he will answer us, but teaching people to shift their faith onto their own words is a big mistake.
They teach that if you just keep trying to speak things into existence you will get what you want. This is confidence in the flesh. I hope that people dont believe that if they recieve something this way that it is from God. Because the gifts of God are not by confesING or doING but believing.
If you are doING you are adding to faith with a type of work. If they perscribe for you to do anything with a ING at the end apart from believing...you are not just believeing anymore.
Be very carefull with such doctorins of works of the flesh.
Joice Meyer? International School of Ministry (ISOM)
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_Aaron Toews
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Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_STEVE7150
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STEVE7150, this is a interesting observation. But that is a good example of God interveening and shuting Zechariahs mouth becuse of what he said and not the devil.
Aaron, good point but still it seems the words meant something or maybe God was just rebuking Zachariah himself for disbelief. The weird thing is as time went on my friend would refuse to say anything negative about any topic at all. So i found as time went on it became harder and harder to talk to her about anything because i had to watch every single word , literally. She could be sneezing,coughing and have a 102 tempurature but she would never acknowledge it because that would give permission to the devil in her belief system.
Aaron, good point but still it seems the words meant something or maybe God was just rebuking Zachariah himself for disbelief. The weird thing is as time went on my friend would refuse to say anything negative about any topic at all. So i found as time went on it became harder and harder to talk to her about anything because i had to watch every single word , literally. She could be sneezing,coughing and have a 102 tempurature but she would never acknowledge it because that would give permission to the devil in her belief system.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Aaron Toews
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:24 pm
- Location: Maple Ridge B.C Canada
Hey Steve7150. You said that your friend didn’t want to give permission to the devil in her belief system.
Well, it would seem that God gave permission to the devil to be in our belief system when he told us about him in the bible.
Im not trying to be littel your friend for believing this. To an extent, I believed this aswell.
First I want to say that I think it is fine to make positive confessions as long as they are true confessions. I could confess...I have believed that I have prayed according to Gods will, so I believe that if this is the case...he will heal me.
In Romans 8.10 pauls says, if Christ be in you your spirit is alive because of righteousness but your body is DEAD because of sin. He is not even saying that our bodies are sick...he says they are dead. I don’t think he is giving way to the devil here with his confession...Adam and eve did that, by sinning in the beginning.
If you are truly coming down with symptoms I can’t see how recognizing them is speaking doubt. I can say that I’m coming down with a cold or that I am sick, all the while having faith that God is a healing God and that in his timing I will be healed according to his will.
I think this is why Paul had no problem saying he was sick and that sickness will be found in believers. In Romans 8.10 he did not say that if you be handed over to Satan your body is dead, he said the opposite…that even with Christ our bodies are dead. This death is the death that we expierence throgh sickness
It’s when the confessions are not true that we have to watch out. I don’t know if you heard Steve’s tapes on the word of faith but this is what he says. He quotes Kenneth Hagin as saying that he hadn’t been sick in years and even if he had been he would not tell us. How do you trust the testimony of someone who even confesses that they would not tell the truth about their own testimony if it was anything but positive . We are not commanded to confess anything in the sense that Hagin tells us to...but we are commanded to tell the truth.
See...I could invent a whole doctorin like Hagins but in another way.
I could say that through sin Satan enters our lives and if you sin, if you even think a sin...you are giving Satan legal passage into your heart.
Because as the bible says, out of a mans heart flow the issues of his life. So if you allow even the smallest sin into your heart...you are giving Satan legal passage into your heart and through your very own heart you will allow Satan to flow out and set a fire your whole life. Like James says a small spark can set a blaze to a forest. Is sin not Satan’s tool? As the word says…we must guard our heart. The scripture says that the heart is deceptive.
How could you argue against my doctorin? This is the word of God. It is clear that the scripture tells us not to give Satan a foot hold. Anyone who says other wise is helping Satan gain the ground he needs to take over your life. You watch out for what you allow you thoughts to dwell on. Through just one sinful thought you could be giving satan the legal right to distroy you and your family like he did to Job. Someone might say that this doctorin breeds fear. GOOD. The bible says work out you salvation with fear and trembling.
You see how easy it is to take a few verses an then add a whole other mystical dimension to them with exaggerated preconceived ideas that we could read into it if we wanted?
Someone could say that I used James 3 out of Context. Yes but if the word of faith teachers can use James 3 out of context…why cant I ?
They could say that the thing that’s sets a fire a persons life is the word of evil amongst the body.
That’s the exaggerated context they want you to see.
But if we read the beginning of the chapter we see the real context.
James 3. Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know we who teach will be judged more strictly ….if anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man….
Then James goes on to give example to the power the tongue can have, how it is like a rudder that can steer a ship or like a spark of fire in a forest.
Some would say that this is proof positive that words have power in themselves but it is obvious that James is talking about the positive or negative influence we can have with what we say, especially as teachers. He employs such dramatic examples to show it is very possible to change the coarse of someone’s life for the good or bad with what we are saying to them with our teaching.
This is clear by what James says in the beginning of the chapter….. Not many of you should presume to be teachers…..and ….if anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man. This seems to be more about striving to be good teachers...if teachers at all. It is not a teaching about the power of words.
They also use a proverb that says that we are snared by our words. Of coarse they would say that the negtive power of our words might manifest them selves in reality and give us a beating.
However I will go with the common sence reading.... Sometimes we make promises we cant keep and then we are snared by our words.
There are other common sence ways to look at a verse like this. Say the wrong thing about the wrong person an he might beat you. We should not just assuem that the Star Wars , use the force interpretation is the best one because some people have great imaginations.
The truth is the doctorin I just made up about sin, like the words of power doctorin is easily refuted.Of coarse a small sin or a few words can change our lives, but not because of the power these things inherintly hold but because of a possible chain of events set into motion by either sin or words.
God would have to completely hand us over to Satan in order that even the smallest sin in our mind might determine the out set of our reality. Sure there is some truth to my Doctorin. If we live out sin and do not even try to restrain it…Satan will get a foot hold. But God is faithful and we are in Christ. For this reason, even though he could, he does not had us over to Satan every time we make a mistake or sin in our minds.
The objection made against negative confessions or words that talk about negative things is that they are confessions of doubt.
Like I said in the beginning, this is not necessarily true. I may say that I feel sick and still believe God is still in control and that he will heal me. But even if I were to doubt does that mean God turns his back on me and forgets that I’m in Christ?
If we take this doctorin to its logical conclusion we see how ridicules it is. If my negative confession allows Satan to enter my life then I had better never say another negative thing about anything or anyone EVER AGAIN.
Not to mention, everything I say had better be positive IN EVERY AREA OF MY LIFE. If someone asks me how my family is…I had better say that they are GREAT and that I DON’T think my son might be getting into drugs. If not, who knows what might happen to them.
If my boss asks how the project is going, I had better say good because If I say that it may not be turning out the way we wanted, I may have just given Satan legal passage to come in and ruin my career because I just doubted God in that area.
This doctorin holds people in bondage.
Steve7150 this would explain te mental suffering that your friend expierenced whan you said..... So i found as time went on it became harder and harder to talk to her about anything because i had to watch every single word , literally.
Thank God that he did not create a universe that holds us into the nightmare of bondage of words like in the universe of the word of faith.
In that universe we would have to be afraid of what we might say…no matter how true it is. When I believed this doctoring I had less faith because I eventually realized that if it comes down to my words and my works to get answered prayer then there is a very good chance I won’t get what I prayed for. I have a hard time having faith in man.
Then I took the burden of trying to make my prayers get answered off my shoulders and placed it back on Jesus shoulders. When I put my problems 100% in Gods hands I could finally rest. I will leave Gods work to him. I have much more faith now.
Well, it would seem that God gave permission to the devil to be in our belief system when he told us about him in the bible.
Im not trying to be littel your friend for believing this. To an extent, I believed this aswell.
First I want to say that I think it is fine to make positive confessions as long as they are true confessions. I could confess...I have believed that I have prayed according to Gods will, so I believe that if this is the case...he will heal me.
In Romans 8.10 pauls says, if Christ be in you your spirit is alive because of righteousness but your body is DEAD because of sin. He is not even saying that our bodies are sick...he says they are dead. I don’t think he is giving way to the devil here with his confession...Adam and eve did that, by sinning in the beginning.
If you are truly coming down with symptoms I can’t see how recognizing them is speaking doubt. I can say that I’m coming down with a cold or that I am sick, all the while having faith that God is a healing God and that in his timing I will be healed according to his will.
I think this is why Paul had no problem saying he was sick and that sickness will be found in believers. In Romans 8.10 he did not say that if you be handed over to Satan your body is dead, he said the opposite…that even with Christ our bodies are dead. This death is the death that we expierence throgh sickness
It’s when the confessions are not true that we have to watch out. I don’t know if you heard Steve’s tapes on the word of faith but this is what he says. He quotes Kenneth Hagin as saying that he hadn’t been sick in years and even if he had been he would not tell us. How do you trust the testimony of someone who even confesses that they would not tell the truth about their own testimony if it was anything but positive . We are not commanded to confess anything in the sense that Hagin tells us to...but we are commanded to tell the truth.
See...I could invent a whole doctorin like Hagins but in another way.
I could say that through sin Satan enters our lives and if you sin, if you even think a sin...you are giving Satan legal passage into your heart.
Because as the bible says, out of a mans heart flow the issues of his life. So if you allow even the smallest sin into your heart...you are giving Satan legal passage into your heart and through your very own heart you will allow Satan to flow out and set a fire your whole life. Like James says a small spark can set a blaze to a forest. Is sin not Satan’s tool? As the word says…we must guard our heart. The scripture says that the heart is deceptive.
How could you argue against my doctorin? This is the word of God. It is clear that the scripture tells us not to give Satan a foot hold. Anyone who says other wise is helping Satan gain the ground he needs to take over your life. You watch out for what you allow you thoughts to dwell on. Through just one sinful thought you could be giving satan the legal right to distroy you and your family like he did to Job. Someone might say that this doctorin breeds fear. GOOD. The bible says work out you salvation with fear and trembling.
You see how easy it is to take a few verses an then add a whole other mystical dimension to them with exaggerated preconceived ideas that we could read into it if we wanted?
Someone could say that I used James 3 out of Context. Yes but if the word of faith teachers can use James 3 out of context…why cant I ?
They could say that the thing that’s sets a fire a persons life is the word of evil amongst the body.
That’s the exaggerated context they want you to see.
But if we read the beginning of the chapter we see the real context.
James 3. Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know we who teach will be judged more strictly ….if anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man….
Then James goes on to give example to the power the tongue can have, how it is like a rudder that can steer a ship or like a spark of fire in a forest.
Some would say that this is proof positive that words have power in themselves but it is obvious that James is talking about the positive or negative influence we can have with what we say, especially as teachers. He employs such dramatic examples to show it is very possible to change the coarse of someone’s life for the good or bad with what we are saying to them with our teaching.
This is clear by what James says in the beginning of the chapter….. Not many of you should presume to be teachers…..and ….if anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man. This seems to be more about striving to be good teachers...if teachers at all. It is not a teaching about the power of words.
They also use a proverb that says that we are snared by our words. Of coarse they would say that the negtive power of our words might manifest them selves in reality and give us a beating.
However I will go with the common sence reading.... Sometimes we make promises we cant keep and then we are snared by our words.
There are other common sence ways to look at a verse like this. Say the wrong thing about the wrong person an he might beat you. We should not just assuem that the Star Wars , use the force interpretation is the best one because some people have great imaginations.
The truth is the doctorin I just made up about sin, like the words of power doctorin is easily refuted.Of coarse a small sin or a few words can change our lives, but not because of the power these things inherintly hold but because of a possible chain of events set into motion by either sin or words.
God would have to completely hand us over to Satan in order that even the smallest sin in our mind might determine the out set of our reality. Sure there is some truth to my Doctorin. If we live out sin and do not even try to restrain it…Satan will get a foot hold. But God is faithful and we are in Christ. For this reason, even though he could, he does not had us over to Satan every time we make a mistake or sin in our minds.
The objection made against negative confessions or words that talk about negative things is that they are confessions of doubt.
Like I said in the beginning, this is not necessarily true. I may say that I feel sick and still believe God is still in control and that he will heal me. But even if I were to doubt does that mean God turns his back on me and forgets that I’m in Christ?
If we take this doctorin to its logical conclusion we see how ridicules it is. If my negative confession allows Satan to enter my life then I had better never say another negative thing about anything or anyone EVER AGAIN.
Not to mention, everything I say had better be positive IN EVERY AREA OF MY LIFE. If someone asks me how my family is…I had better say that they are GREAT and that I DON’T think my son might be getting into drugs. If not, who knows what might happen to them.
If my boss asks how the project is going, I had better say good because If I say that it may not be turning out the way we wanted, I may have just given Satan legal passage to come in and ruin my career because I just doubted God in that area.
This doctorin holds people in bondage.
Steve7150 this would explain te mental suffering that your friend expierenced whan you said..... So i found as time went on it became harder and harder to talk to her about anything because i had to watch every single word , literally.
Thank God that he did not create a universe that holds us into the nightmare of bondage of words like in the universe of the word of faith.
In that universe we would have to be afraid of what we might say…no matter how true it is. When I believed this doctoring I had less faith because I eventually realized that if it comes down to my words and my works to get answered prayer then there is a very good chance I won’t get what I prayed for. I have a hard time having faith in man.
Then I took the burden of trying to make my prayers get answered off my shoulders and placed it back on Jesus shoulders. When I put my problems 100% in Gods hands I could finally rest. I will leave Gods work to him. I have much more faith now.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I had a look at ISOM a few years ago. We had just come out of a totally controlling and legalistic pentecostal group and were coming into contact with other groups for the first time. Compared to the dross that we were being fed the teachers in the ISOM ministry were quite reasonable. I understood ISOM to be an answer to a problem in the church at large where large numbers of people were being evangelised in developing nations but were being lost to unsound doctrines.
After some more contact with Joyce Meyer (we attended her rally in Manila) we were somewhat concerned when she had a charismatic Franscican priest on the stage with her in Manila - especially as our understanding of prophecy was historic. That was where I first saw ISOM being plugged. Also being missionaries in the Philippines we were less than impressed with prosperity doctrines. For me I had a 'spit out the pits' attitude to ISOM but it did cause quite a few problems in other churches we were associated with. Other people who did some of the first trimester topics enjoyed them, particularly the New and Old Testament Surveys.
This is Berin Gilfillan's home page about ISOM:
http://www.viamission.org/VCD/isom_note_founder.htm
After some more contact with Joyce Meyer (we attended her rally in Manila) we were somewhat concerned when she had a charismatic Franscican priest on the stage with her in Manila - especially as our understanding of prophecy was historic. That was where I first saw ISOM being plugged. Also being missionaries in the Philippines we were less than impressed with prosperity doctrines. For me I had a 'spit out the pits' attitude to ISOM but it did cause quite a few problems in other churches we were associated with. Other people who did some of the first trimester topics enjoyed them, particularly the New and Old Testament Surveys.
This is Berin Gilfillan's home page about ISOM:
http://www.viamission.org/VCD/isom_note_founder.htm
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: