Excellent video on the Word of Faith movement

[Guest]

Hi Homer,

Thanks for taking up the conversation!

I believe Steve is correct. In the case of the men making a hole in the roof to get the man to Jesus, He observed their action and denominated it "faith". Likewise the woman's effort were referred to as faith. Their actions had the meaning of faith. We so often see faith as something abstract, apart from any action. I do not believe Jesus saw it that way.

I agree as well; isn't that very close to "...and I will show you my faith by my works...?"

Hi Michelle- ask away!

I think this is all very interesting.

TK

Okay, then, here's my question...for anyone, really. Why is healing so important? Is it important for believers to never by sick? If so, why?

[Guest]

I agree as well; isn't that very close to "...and I will show you my faith by my works...?"

I think the term "faith" involves and implies action. It may be semantics -- it isn't a "work" in the sense of something that earns salvation, but I believe faith is more than a belief - it is an exercise based on that belief. I believe a car won't hit me, but I actually have faith when I step out into the street. We're so afraid to suggest we "earn" salvation that we aren't willing to acknowledge the role actions take in our salvation. Even "profession" is an action in a way, and evangelicals aren't afraid to suggest we aren't saved until we "profess with our mouths..." Idon't think there's a formulaic certainty in profession or actions, but they illustrate a concept that would be expressed differently if the apostles were writing directly to us today. We don't use faith as a verb, but I think it sort of is (theologically, even if not grammatically).

Okay, then, here's my question...for anyone, really. Why is healing so important? Is it important for believers to never by sick? If so, why?

I can't imagine why it is important but for our comfort -- God does desire our comfort, I think, unless that comfort leads to our selfishness or cause us to lose sight of Him. I do think he'd rather we were sick if it was necessary for us to reflect on and turn our need to Him. I think that's no different than wealth and time. We can use our health, wealth, and time for His purposes or we can not -- if we do, then I do think He wants to give them to us without reservation. If not, then it doesn't serve His purposes and can act against our relationship with Him, which is not in His will.

[Guest]

I agree as well; isn't that very close to "...and I will show you my faith by my works...?"

I think the term "faith" involves and implies action. It may be semantics -- it isn't a "work" in the sense of something that earns salvation, but I believe faith is more than a belief - it is an exercise based on that belief. I believe a car won't hit me, but I actually have faith when I step out into the street. We're so afraid to suggest we "earn" salvation that we aren't willing to acknowledge the role actions take in our salvation. Even "profession" is an action in a way, and evangelicals aren't afraid to suggest we aren't saved until we "profess with our mouths..." Idon't think there's a formulaic certainty in profession or actions, but they illustrate a concept that would be expressed differently if the apostles were writing directly to us today. We don't use faith as a verb, but I think it sort of is (theologically, even if not grammatically).

Hi Darin,

I was pretty cryptic there, and I basically just quoted James. Was there something in there that led you to believe that I disagree with what you wrote above? Or were you just expanding on the thought? I agree with what you wrote, I'm pretty sure, but if you see where I've made a mistake, please tell me.

Okay, then, here's my question...for anyone, really. Why is healing so important? Is it important for believers to never by sick? If so, why?

I can't imagine why it is important but for our comfort -- God does desire our comfort, I think, unless that comfort leads to our selfishness or cause us to lose sight of Him. I do think he'd rather we were sick if it was necessary for us to reflect on and turn our need to Him. I think that's no different than wealth and time. We can use our health, wealth, and time for His purposes or we can not -- if we do, then I do think He wants to give them to us without reservation. If not, then it doesn't serve His purposes and can act against our relationship with Him, which is not in His will.

Hmm...perhaps you are being a little cryptic now. By that reasoning, the people who are the richest, healthiest, and with the most leisure time on their hands should be those who follow God the closest. But my life-experience tells me otherwise. Your reasoning could also lead to the belief that people who are sick, poor, or otherwise afflicted can be assumed to have some attitude or some sin in their life that is displeasing God, which I don't think is right, either.

Perhaps you are right, however. I'm really confused at this point due to several personal experiences in the last few years.

Healing seems to be important; Jesus healed a lot of people. I just can't figure out why right now.

[Guest]

Hi Darin,

I was pretty cryptic there, and I basically just quoted James. Was there something in there that led you to believe that I disagree with what you wrote above? Or were you just expanding on the thought? I agree with what you wrote, I'm pretty sure, but if you see where I've made a mistake, please tell me.

No, just expanding the thought.

Hmm...perhaps you are being a little cryptic now. By that reasoning, the people who are the richest, healthiest, and with the most leisure time on their hands should be those who follow God the closest. But my life-experience tells me otherwise. Your reasoning could also lead to the belief that people who are sick, poor, or otherwise afflicted can be assumed to have some attitude or some sin in their life that is displeasing God, which I don't think is right, either.

Perhaps you are right, however. I'm really confused at this point due to several personal experiences in the last few years.

Healing seems to be important; Jesus healed a lot of people. I just can't figure out why right now.

I didn't intend to be cryptic -- I didn't mean to imply this -- I think God may give people over in their wealth and that wealth isn't an indication of God's will -- there isn't a direct corrolary in my opinion, but it is clearly God's will that those with wealth use it for His purposes (granted that they likely won't).

For the believer, I think He will withhold or enhance wealth (or time or health) as a test to strengthen our faith or to provide resources for us to use for His purposes.

For the unbeliever, they might be wealthy or not for any number of purposes, even those that serve His larger purposes unwittingly (going out on a limb - maybe Bill Gates so that the poor might be served through His secular foundation, or so that software tools are freely available for forums like these, etc).

I don't think you can draw a conclusion about God's will from the wealth or health alone -- God loves mankind and wants us to be well but I think He prefers our reliance on Him (again, because that's better for us and also to His glory) than our comfort for its own sake.

[Guest]

Michelle wrote:

Why is healing so important? Is it important for believers to never by sick? If so, why?

As to the first question, I believe that Jesus expects us to carry on with his Kingdom mission. Part of his kingdom mission was healing the sick; more specifically:

The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD

Before He left, He said: "As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” (John 20:21). I believe that those things listed above, among others, have been left to us to carry out.

But it's not simply healing for healing's sake. It is healing associated with the good news of the Gospel. God is not just a big talker; he backs His words with His power. Paul said: "For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power." (I Cor. 4:20).

In other words, the gospel message, at least in my eyes, should not just be so much rhetoric. Jesus backed up his message with demonstrations of power, as did the apostles. I am not sure where we get the mindset that we today can get by without any demonstrations of the Spirit's power.

I am very new to thinking this way. I grew up in very conservative non-charismatic church backgrounds. But I have been exposed in the last couple of years to a more charismatic way of thinking, and I must say I like it!

As to your second question (Is it important for believers never to be sick?) I can only answer that I would prefer not to be, and I would prefer others not to be. Therefore, if we can effect a healing via the power of almighty God, I'm all for it. What I refuse to do is accept that it is God's will for someone to be sick. I just don't buy that any more. If I don't believe that God wants people well, then I cannot have faith that anyone will be healed.

TK

[Guest]

As to your second question (Is it important for believers never to be sick?) I can only answer that I would prefer not to be, and I would prefer others not to be. Therefore, if we can effect a healing via the power of almighty God, I'm all for it. What I refuse to do is accept that it is God's will for someone to be sick. I just don't buy that any more. If I don't believe that God wants people well, then I cannot have faith that anyone will be healed.

I would only add that I would actually prefer to be sick if that was necessary to keep me close to and relying upon God. I have been well without relying on God and I wasn't really "well" if you know what I mean.

[Guest]

darin wrote:

I would only add that I would actually prefer to be sick if that was necessary to keep me close to and relying upon God.

i would agree with you. but obviously, God's best is that we would keep close and rely on him when we are well. i dont think God is blessed by having to make us sick so that we will draw closer to him.

let's say my son is not paying much attention to me ( well, he IS 15). do I wish that he was struck with an illness so that he will stay in the house and be with me? heavens, no. I am not sure if God operates that way, either, although I am not 100% sure.

TK

[Guest]

There is another aspect of my view I want to make sure I point out -- it's such a presupposition, I didn't even thin to mention it, but want to make sure it's stated.

Some illness (maybe most?) is in my view not even the permissive will of God. I believe we were created not to be ill for the most part (not sure to what extent) -- illness in most forms I think is probably a result of sin -- whether our own or in some second-order way from the sin of others (now or in the past). Some of our mechanisms for illness may stem from mechanisms created for other purposes.

As an example, when we outlaw DDT because it serves our political agendas and millions die of malaria, is that due to God's judgment on them? or a result of our choices? When millions starve of malnutrition because we don't care to help, was it God that caused it or us?

Possibly even communicable diseases in the past created the bacteria we face today or at least changed their normal patterns of communication.

Whatever the cause, though, that same spirit that caused Paul to rejoice in his thorn in the flesh should help us rejoice even in (or even because of) our illnesses.

[Guest]

Michelle wrote:

Why is healing so important? Is it important for believers to never by sick? If so, why?

As to the first question, I believe that Jesus expects us to carry on with his Kingdom mission. Part of his kingdom mission was healing the sick; more specifically:

The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD

Before He left, He said: "As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” (John 20:21). I believe that those things listed above, among others, have been left to us to carry out.

But it's not simply healing for healing's sake. It is healing associated with the good news of the Gospel. God is not just a big talker; he backs His words with His power. Paul said: "For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power." (I Cor. 4:20).

So, it's not healing for healing's sake, but a sign; and the sign is about God's power. Is that right? I think that makes sense.

In other words, the gospel message, at least in my eyes, should not just be so much rhetoric. Jesus backed up his message with demonstrations of power, as did the apostles. I am not sure where we get the mindset that we today can get by without any demonstrations of the Spirit's power.

I agree with what you are saying here, but I'm not sure who you are referring to when you say, "...we get the mindset that we today can get by without any demonstrations of the Spirit's power." I realize that you distance yourself from Word of Faith teachers, but do you feel that some of us distance ourselves so much that we dismiss the Spirit's power in our lives? For me, that's not the case, however, the power of the Holy Spirit hasn't been demonstrated in healing. That's why I'm so interested in this topic.

I am very new to thinking this way. I grew up in very conservative non-charismatic church backgrounds. But I have been exposed in the last couple of years to a more charismatic way of thinking, and I must say I like it!

Same here, especially the part I bolded. I may have a little catching up to do to get to where you are in liking what you've learned; some of the practices of some Charismatics have been sort of detrimental to my understanding. (My apologies to the many Charismatics who post here. I'm not talking about anyone of you)

As to your second question (Is it important for believers never to be sick?) I can only answer that I would prefer not to be, and I would prefer others not to be. Therefore, if we can effect a healing via the power of almighty God, I'm all for it. What I refuse to do is accept that it is God's will for someone to be sick. I just don't buy that any more. If I don't believe that God wants people well, then I cannot have faith that anyone will be healed.

TK

Here's the thing: I have a disease, one that is common enough to be called epidemic, and for which there is currently no easy cure. Right now it's not life threatening, but it is lifestyle changing and probably life shortening. I've never once considered asking God to heal me, and I'm not sure why I haven't. It just doesn't seem that important. I guess if I was healed I could eat anything I wanted to, but then I'd actually be less healthy than I am right at this moment. Strange, huh? I don't believe that it's a matter of a lack of faith on my part, or a rejection of the power of the Holy Spirit, because I do believe I have faith and I've seen plenty of the work of the Holy Spirit in my life as well as in many lives of those I know. Now, however, you've got me thinking about whether or not I'm missing something. By the way, I also don't ever feel like whining or eating worms or complaining about my lot in life.

Thanks for discussing it with me,
Michelle

[Guest]

Here are a few situations from my life that might be relevant:

I have been HIGHLY allergic to shellfish since I was very young (walking past the kitchen vent of a seafood restaurant would cause me to break out in hives!) I guess I could ask God to heal me, but knowing what I know now about how bad shellfish is for you I am very thankful that I am allergic to it so that I haven't been putting all of those toxins in my body.

For several years I had a toenail that didn't grow properly (I think there was a fungus). Anyway, I thought for a while that it was silly to ask the Lord to heal something that minor. But I finally asked Him and within a couple of months it was completely healed (it had been YEARS that it looked bad).

A really good friend of mine went to a conference at Christ for the Nations here in Dallas and they called people up front who had things they wanted healed. She felt the Lord prompting her to go up there and she told them that she had flat feet. They prayed for her and her feet became arched.

We had neighbors at our old apartment complex who were Mormons. They had a new little baby that had been having seizures. The doctors were prepared to classify it as epilepsy because it had been happening very frequently. I asked her one day if I could pray for her daughter right there and so I laid hands on her little girl and prayed that Jesus would heal her. I asked the mom about a month later if she had had any seizures and she said that her daughter had not. I didn't get a chance to share the gospel with her, but I know that that experience demonstrated more to her about God that hours of arguing about mormonism could have.

------------------------------------------------------

Only one of the 3 healing situations were situations where the Gospel was furthered through healing. The other two were just the Lord showing Himself to His children who asked for His touch -- even on two seemingly insignificant things. But yet there are times that we ask and nothing happens. Were those the times it just wasn't His will?

We have a friend who was in India for several years as a missionary. He said that only about half of the people he prayed for there were healed. And he had no clue why. He just prayed for them and trusted the Lord.

Even though from just looking at Scripture I think that a precedent could be set for just saying "In the name of Jesus be healed!" I'm not there yet.