Excellent video on the Word of Faith movement

[Guest]

Hi darin-

you wrote:

both our health and our illness could be a gift from God

I don't quite understand this.

I assume that your line of reasoning is that a "greater good" might come out of our illness, therefore it is a gift of God that we have the illness so that we can get the greater good.

Now, I agree that God can bring greater good out of an illness (Rom 8:28 ) but this is a far different matter than saying God struck us with illness to teach us something, or for some greater good.

Let me ask you this. Would God ever get us to sin for some greater good? What if an unsaved person commits murder and get sentenced to life in prison. while incarcerated, he gets radically saved through prison ministry. he evangelizes his cell block and many are saved.

Now- did God cause him to commit murder so that a greater good could result? obviously not. but God used the sin to bring glory out of a bad situation.

i think the same can be said for illness. God doesnt cause it, nor is he pleased about it (IMO). Therefore I think we should combat it. sickness and disease is not God's best for us. i dont think we should simply accept it. we are to fight against it, just like we fight against sin. why would we want to resign ourselves to sickness? Jesus never made anyone sick, nor did he tell them that their sickness was for some greater good (other than lazarus, but he raised him from the dead for goodness sake).

Do you see where I am coming from?

TK

[Guest]

But, TK, it seems like you're putting sickness on the same plane as sin and I don't think that's fair. In your example about the murderer, it should be someone is put in prison unjustly who finds faith through a prison ministry to be analogous.

[Guest]

true, michelle, but i wasnt making an exact comparison. my point was that i dont think God wants either for us, but that he can work through both. this doesnt mean we should want to sin, or want to be sick, simply because God might work through it.

TK

[Guest]

there is a reason God doesn't heal amputees


God wants us to walk by faith not by sight, by healing amputees we could see it and believe it and we would not need faith. Instead the bible tells us to believe it and then see it. I agree with TK in that i don't think God causes illnesses although He certainly can make all things work for the good.
I think that Satan either directly or indirectly through this fallen world causes sickness.
The thing that i find complex is why God allows Satan to do what he does but i trust God that in the end there will be a greater good from it.

[Guest]

Paul called Satan "the god of this world" 2 Cor 4.4 and Satan offered to Jesus "the kingdoms of this world" if he would bow down and worship Satan. Was Satan trying to fool Jesus? No, because these were real, legitimate temptations that Jesus had to overcome and if he were lying Jesus would have called him on such an important claim.
So yes the earth is God's as is everything, but i think Satan has a lease on this world for a certain period of time.


One other verse that's important is in John 12 , Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world."

[Guest]

I've heard stories about amputees being healed.... bones, tissues, nerves, skin, everything growing back.

Why is it assumed that this is not possible?

[Guest]

Now, I agree that God can bring greater good out of an illness (Rom 8:28 ) but this is a far different matter than saying God struck us with illness to teach us something, or for some greater good.
...i think the same can be said for illness. God doesnt cause it, nor is he pleased about it (IMO). (TK)

There is at least one instance in the bible that seems to show the opposite. In Daniel Chapter 4 is a very interesting account of God temporarilly striking someone with a mental illness, for their good:

Dan 4:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king, to all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth: Peace be multiplied to you.
Dan 4:2 It seemed good before me to declare the signs and wonders that the Most High God has done with me.

He was given a warning (through a dream) first of a judgement that would come to him:

Dan 4:25 They shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the animals of the field, and they shall make you eat grass like oxen. And they shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He will.
Dan 4:27 Therefore, O king, let my advice be pleasing to you, and break off your sins by righteousness, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor, whether there will be duration to your prosperity.
Dan 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.
Dan 4:30 The king spoke and said, Is this not great Babylon that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power and for the honor of my majesty?
Dan 4:33 The same hour the thing was fulfilled on Nebuchadnezzar. And he was driven from men, and ate grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of the heavens, until his hair had grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

After seven years passed, he decided to turn toward God:

Dan 4:34 And at the end of days, I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up my eyes to Heaven, and my understanding returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and I praised and honored Him who lives forever, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and His rule is from generation to generation.
Dan 4:36 At that time my reason returned to me. And the glory of my kingdom, my honor and brightness returned to me. And my advisers and my lords came for me, and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me.
Dan 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and exalt and honor the King of heaven, all whose works are truth and His ways judgment. And those who walk in pride He is able to humble.

I think that was a really interesting response he had - he didn't rail against God for striking him, a king, with this humiliating madness, for seven years; instead he recognised it as something good from God that he needed, and he praised & blessed God instead, and gave Him glory.

[Guest]

And those who walk in pride He is able to humble.



Yes God can humble us but New Covenant believers have a relationship with God defined by His covenant. I don't see where in this covenant God smites us with illness but i see this.
"How God annointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil for God was with him." Acts 10.38
Interestingly Jesus healed not because he was God incarnate but through the annointing of the Holy Spirit.

[Guest]

I've heard stories about amputees being healed.... bones, tissues, nerves, skin, everything growing back.

Why is it assumed that this is not possible?

I mean missing limbs re-grown.... there's just some things I think God has decided not to do. I'm not sure why since he raised folks from the grave in public, and other clearly signifying miracles, but for some reason not so much today (though, yes I've heard miraculous stories, primarily from the mission field). The point they made on the show was that these stories do always seem to be stories heard third or more hands away.

I'm glad someone pointed out the difference between sin and illness -- I don't like it for sure, but why is illness seen as such a negative thing (given the fall, of course)?

TK, how do you view birth defects? blindness? Accidental injury? I think God causes these things and choose people to suffer these inflictions (at least some times) for the purpose of His own glorification.

Yes, God would prefer a world I think without sin or illness or death or accidental injury, but given the fall, how can we not see at least some of it as brought by God.

[Guest]

TK, how do you view birth defects? blindness? Accidental injury? I think God causes these things and choose people to suffer these inflictions (at least some times) for the purpose of His own glorification.


God causes babies to be born blind,without limbs,without brains,infected with aids,with cancer for his glorification?