'Jesus words only' and the book by this title

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jriccitelli
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'Jesus words only' and the book by this title

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:13 am

I was ‘given’ this book ‘Jesus words only’ (I don’t recommend paying for one).
In August 2013, there were over 7000 page views per day of Douglas Del Tondos message on his website concerning Douglas' teaching that Paul invented the salvation by Grace doctrine and that Paul was the one holding to the teaching of Balaam in Rev 2:14, and that Paul is the ‘ravening wolf’ (Matt 7:15) from Benjamin’s tribe (Gen 49:27). (Interesting argument, but baloney)
This book, I feel, fueled a friend of mines hate for God and Paul. A long story but I have been communicating and debating with him over this for almost 4 years. I will post part of my email response to my friends brother (concerning this book) who also bought into this teaching:

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jriccitelli
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Re: 'Jesus words only' and the book by this title

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:21 am

Did Isaacs’s son Jacob prophesy that almost half of the New Testament will be scribed by a false prophet! And that possibly all Gods disciples, the beginning of the Church and the whole ’future Church’ will never be able to stand against the power of the ‘great teller of lies’ who somehow will get 14 books canonized before John the Revelator can expose him!! According to Douglas the following verse makes this clear:

"Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; in the morning he devours the prey, and in the evening he divides the spoil." Genesis 49:27


When I read the above verse of Genesis 49:27, I immediately thought of the war between the tribes of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin in the book of Judges. This event clearly details the strength and vicious destructive character of the Benjamites. And this certainly fulfills Jacobs’s prediction of the tribe of Benjamin. Three whole chapters are devoted to just this event, and it is certainly not hidden, nor does it need to be pieced together from vague reasoning. It even fills in the vague meaning of morning and evening better than the ‘Paul divides the spoils’ interpretation. It is interesting to read the whole 3 chapters, as I have only shown some ‘notable’ verses following below;

Judges chapter 19:16, 22, 20:21, 25, 35, 44
Then behold, an old man was coming out of the field from his work at evening. Now the man was from the hill country of Ephraim, and he was staying in Gibeah, but the men of the place were Benjamites… 22 …certain worthless fellows…
20: 21 Then the sons of Benjamin came out of Gibeah and felled to the ground on that day 22,000 men of Israel...
20:25 Benjamin went out against them from Gibeah the second day and felled to the ground again 18,000 men of the sons of Israel...
20: 35 And the LORD struck Benjamin before Israel…Then the men of Israel turned in the battle, and Benjamin began to strike and kill about thirty men of Israel, for they said, "Surely they are defeated before us, as in the first battle...
20: 44 Thus 18,000 men of Benjamin fell; all these were valiant warriors.45 The rest turned and fled toward the wilderness to the rock of Rimmon, but they caught 5,000 of them on the highways and overtook them at Gidom and killed 2,000 of them.46 So all of Benjamin who fell that day were 25,000 men who draw the sword; all these were valiant warriors.


It is interesting that God had to step in to save the men of Israel from Benjamin.
It is interesting that God allows ‘Judah to be punished’ by the Benjamites (20:18) in the first battle, supposedly because as it says in vs.21:25 “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes”.
Benjamin was historically hostile, and as the book of Judges points out, maybe more hostile than the other tribes. If Douglas asserts that this prophecy must be about an individual person ‘Paul’ then Douglas needs therefore to present the fulfillment of each of the other 10 tribes as being fulfilled in a ‘person’ also.
Although it wouldn’t be hard to make Jacobs blessings fit dozens of people among the tribes of Judah throughout biblical history. The blessings alternately say the boys (tribes) will be bad and good, and so anyone bad or good could be put under either category.
Jacobs’s blessings and cursing are prophetic concerning the tribes; Judah was blessed as the line of the Messiah. And except for the messiah being a person, it would sure be hard to apply any of these ‘other’ prophetic blessings to any individuals since they are for the ‘Tribes’ of Israel, but more so, I can not recall ‘any biblical prophecies’ about far future events concerning any ‘persons’ other than Elijah and the Messiah and the Serpent.. All future prophecies seem to concern peoples and nations.

Douglas says on pg.349 that this Benjamite prophecy follows many positive predictions for all the other eleven tribes. This is not true, many predictions are ‘not’ positive…
Genesis 49:3-7
"Reuben, you are my firstborn; My might and the beginning of my strength, Preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power.4 "Uncontrolled as water, you shall not have preeminence, Because you went up to your father's bed; Then you defiled it--he went up to my couch.5 "Simeon and Levi are brothers; Their swords are implements of violence.6 "Let my soul not enter into their council; Let not my glory be united with their assembly; Because in their anger they slew men, And in their self-will they lamed oxen.7 "Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce; And their wrath, for it is cruel. I will disperse them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.
(These are not positive predictions, Even Dan and Gads blessings are a bit worrisome)

Now back to rest of this scathing prophecy about Paul:
“In the morning he devours the prey, and in the evening he divides the spoil”
In the ‘Douglas interpretation’ of ‘morning and evening’ this simply means ‘before and after’, yet how else does anything happen but ‘before and after!?!’ Everything in the world would fit into that interpretation. And Paul ‘dividing the spoils’ whether its Hippolytus’ or Doug’s version, neither fit; if Paul does not recruit Jews, and says the Apostles would do so, then they were never his disciples anyways. You can’t divide what you never had.
Doug implies the dividing was Paul claiming a right of division-he exclusively will recruit Gentiles’ (pg.350). Doug gives no verse or reference. Paul does not claim or assert some ‘right’, Paul and the Apostles go all over the place, often with each other, Peter and Paul end up in Rome ‘together’.
Paul, Barnabas, Silas and Judas were ‘sent by the Apostles’ (Luke 15:22-30), just as the ‘brethren’ sent Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem (Luke 15:2). Paul does not claim or assert any right, and he receives the apostle’s full blessing for this ministry.

And as addressing ‘the morning, evening and spoils’ portion fulfillment of Jacobs words, the following is a weak, but still much better interpretation of Genesis 49 than ‘Doug’s application’ to Paul.
Judges 19:26-27 & 21:17-23.
19: 26 As the day began to dawn, the woman came and fell down at the doorway of the man's house where her master was, until full daylight.
19: 27 When her master arose in the morning and opened the doors of the house and went out to go on his way, then behold, his concubine was lying at the doorway
21: 17 They said, "There must be an inheritance for the survivors of Benjamin,
21: 23 The sons of Benjamin did so, and took wives according to their number from those who danced, whom they carried away. And they went and returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the cities and lived in them.24 The sons of Israel departed from there at that time, every man to his tribe and family, and each one of them went out from there to his inheritance.


Why is this a better interpretation of Genesis 49 than ‘Doug’s application’ to Paul;
1. This is an actual morning in Judges and it is the foundation for the war.
Where having ‘morning’ meaning the ‘beginning of the church’ is vague.
2. The Evening is an actual evening. Although presumptuous, most likely the dances where in the evenings, and the ability for the Benjamites to hide and catch wives (read story) probably meant it was after dark.

Matthew 7:15
"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
False ‘prophets’ insists there will be many, and Paul is only one. You could say followers of Paul could be many, but still ‘prophets’ is in the plural, the false sheep’s are in plural, and wolves is in plural. So it cannot be about one prophet.

Luke 21:7
They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?" 8 And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them.

Jesus says they will say both; ‘I am He’ and 'The time is near’.
1. Paul never says ‘I am he’.
2. Jesus is talking specifically about the false Christ’s, or messiahs.
3: Jesus is talking about the latter days, or end times.

Therefore the evidence that someone is a false prophet must be that they utter 'the time is near.’
(Approach, draws near, at hand all are translations of <1448>)
(Romans 13:12 The night is far spent the day is at hand <1448>)

Paul uses the phrase 'the time is near' in a ‘different context’, but Peter and John are guilty of the exact same phrase in the same context!!
1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand <1448>
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. <1448>


AhHah! Peter and John are the false Christs! The Spouters of lies!!! (I am using their own verbage back)
Douglas should write a book about Peter and John too! And Luke and Ezekiel and Jeremiah …and Isaiah!
Douglas should have no problem doing so because;
He labels anyone who believes exactly what ‘Jesus told us to believe’ as blasphemers.
Doug Labels anyone who trusts in Jesus for;
The forgiveness of sin
The promise of eternal life
Of having eternal life
And anyone who trusts in Gods grace for forgiveness - Douglas labels them a ‘Paulinist’.

Doug lumps together every one of the billion Christian believers as having the exact same soteriology, all thinking the believing the same things, this is not true.
He uses his mop to paint a picture of every evangelical as unable to think for themselves. His hypothesis is that he whole Church conspired together to change the meaning of scripture, and promoting Grace over works.
Besides Doug going on about how ‘Christians are generally unaware’ of this prophecy of Gen.49:10 is just shameful theatrics. Doug continues this uninformed attempt at painting a picture, which exists solely in his own mind, of saying …evangelicals avoid this interpretation… (and that) no evangelicals can refute this… (Douglas)

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Michelle
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Re: 'Jesus words only' and the book by this title

Post by Michelle » Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:08 pm

Hi jriccitelli,
Doug lumps together every one of the billion Christian believers as having the exact same soteriology, all thinking the believing the same things, this is not true.
What are the things he says that all Christians believe?
This book, I feel, fueled a friend of mines hate for God and Paul.
What has become of your friend? Does s/he still hate God?

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jriccitelli
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Re: 'Jesus words only' and the book by this title

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:34 am

What has become of your friend? Does he still hate God?
It is odd with this particular person, I had rode in his truck a while ago and saw Christian worship music CDs in the player and dash, I wondered, but my wife reminded me she thinks he is playing Christian music to lead on or impress a girl we know he is ‘trying’ to date who is a Christian (Christian singles, beware!). Not sure where he is at spiritually but he does not have faith in God, just spirituality, for the moment.
What are the things he says that all Christians believe?
cant remember, I wrote alot on DelTondo, and have to sort through it, but I have to go to get some sleep for now.

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Michelle
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Re: 'Jesus words only' and the book by this title

Post by Michelle » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:03 pm

jricitelli, I don't want you to have to go to any trouble on my behalf. I'm just really curious about this whole belief system. I've taken your advice to avoid the book, but I visited the website where I've gotten the impression that these people are ultra-legalists. I really wonder what Del Tondo is reacting against and how he arrived at his conviction that we are required to obey so much of the law to be saved.

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