Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by TheEditor » Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:15 am

Greetings,

Well, as regards the church honoring veterans; I would say that one gets into a somewhat knotty situation here. On the one hand, one could say that we appreciate what the military has done on certain occasions to protect certain rights we have come to enjoy, much like the police force can be a tool for good. And, when it comes down to it, I am sure we appreciate being in a pluralistic society with all of the benefits that offers. Some feel that they can serve in the military and site examples from Scripture (the Centurian; John the baptist's admonishment to those serving as soldiers, etc. although it should be noted that the military situation was different in John's day). However, it seems to me at least, that since a person's first allegiance is supposed to (for the Christian at least) be to God, then it becomes a difficult proposition to say that this nod to the military can be any more than that, despite how much we might appreciate being the beneficiaries of such a system.

As far as casting stones; my main complaint goes against those who should know better. The average church-goer may be well-intended, but they aren't teachers; teachers recieve a weightier judgment. Teachers should know and reinforce the idea that politics is a personal matter and if one wants to be politically involved, they should know all the factors that go into making such a decision, the pitfalls, and etc. and that, political affiliation or not, should never be used as a test of fellowship. Unfortunately, those in the church in America, that are teachers, that should know better, have created an alloy of religio/political conservatism; pro-America, pro military, pro-big business and Calvinism that seems to be the christianity of currency. If I were politically active, I would likely vote Republican, because I find myself at least agreeing with them on a number of issues, so this diatribe is not coming from a liberal. It's just that I take Jesus' words about His Kingdom being "no part of this world" more seriously than I take Rush Limbaugh.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

thrombomodulin
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by thrombomodulin » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:17 am

I acknowledge the validity of Homers rebuke and have removed my post.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by Homer » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:47 am

I acknowledge the validity of Homers rebuke and have removed my post.
And now I feel bad as I did not have you in mind in the slightest. I thought you asked a valid and important question. My concern was with calling all politicians liars and judging many prominent Christians, and by implication, all who agree with them.

And my sympathies are with the pacifists. Saturday we attended a funeral, at the Church we attend, for a man who was, by all accounts, a good Christian man. He was a veteran and at the close of the service there was the usual military stuff with presentation of the flag to his widow. My own opinion is that this is out of place in church, but then the church is not the building but the assembly of God's people. And it is God's business to Judge those who serve in the military. Perhaps those who killed Osama were God's agents of judgment.

At our church I have never heard anything remotely advocating war or politics. But just last night I overheard a rant on TV about politics and Obama. Sounded like a script for Sean Hannity's program, and then in closing the "preacher" said his prayer - "Christian" TV! Appalling.
Last edited by Homer on Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thrombomodulin
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by thrombomodulin » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:00 pm

Homer,

Thank you so much for clearing this up, for to be honest it had caused some stress and resulted in great deal of introspection about exactly where it was that I had gone wrong. Since then, I had been trying to resolve in my mind if it was the case that I would not have been deserving of this rebuke had I made anonymous in this forum whom it was that made such a very public display their position. Perhaps you are saying we ought to only speak of these things primarily in the abstract? It seemed absolutely certain based on the timing of your response, and the fact that I did make a special effort to highlight the degree of glorification of war and those who participate in it, is going on in my church. Thus, I concluded I was the primary target of your rebuke. Since I participate in serving in at least a minor way in the functioning of this church, I felt it was prudent for me to ask about the appropriateness of such activities, and then deduce what actions (if any) I ought to take. I might for example keep my opinions to myself, cease association with this local assembly, or express my concerns to the elder board. If the last, it would have been my duty to better prepare myself to state the case for these concerns and hence the purpose of that post.

I say that I am unprepared because none of the positions one can take about war strike me as entirely satisfactory. The position advocated by Matt Rose and Steve Gregg is better than most, and the post was directed specifically at addressing a difficulty that I perceive with this perspective. That difficulty is that if indeed it is a noble and honorable career for non-Christians to engage in war at the bidding of their rulers, then their actions are commendable. It seems a small step for the church to honor them for their service -- especially if indeed they "defend are freedoms" (I am not affirming that they do, but positing this for the sake of argument). If this is so, then my concern should only be about which veterans are honored (presuming we ought to exclude from that set those who ought to act like "priests" on account of their faith but failed to do so).
Homer wrote: Perhaps those who killed Osama were God's agents of judgment.
If I am not misinformed, those who were said to have killed Osama were shortly thereafter themselves all killed in a helicopter crash. They are certainly not around to ask, but excepting the possibility of divine revelation how could they possibly have known God authorized them to do so? Shall we say that any letter of marque by any ruler sufficient to establish such a justification? But, if indeed they lack divine authority to do so, then acts like this are only another case of murder - right? I agree that God will be their judge, but I do not wish to risk incurring God's displeasure, like the Pharisees did in Matthew 23, because I approve and honor the sins of such men. I won't be setting out patriotic decorations in my current role, but I may be asked to ensure that a war glorification video makes its way to the projector for all the congregation to see. Thoughts of resignation come to mind.

Thanks
Pete

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by Homer » Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:32 pm

Hi Pete,
Perhaps you are saying we ought to only speak of these things primarily in the abstract?


No, not at all. I just think it best to be non-judgmental and refrain from what appeared to me to be slandering those who hold another position on the legitimacy of military service.
It seemed absolutely certain based on the timing of your response, and the fact that I did make a special effort to highlight the degree of glorification of war and those who participate in it, is going on in my church. Thus, I concluded I was the primary target of your rebuke.
The timing was just a coincidence. Actually, I was hoping to see some discussion regarding your post and then it was gone. My bad! And a good lesson for me on how my posts may be perceived.
I say that I am unprepared because none of the positions one can take about war strike me as entirely satisfactory.
Me too. My personal sympathies are with the pacifists but I am not prepared to judge or even criticize those who serve in the military.
....if indeed it is a noble and honorable career for non-Christians to engage in war at the bidding of their rulers, then their actions are commendable.
The problem for me goes beyond this. I can not criticize Christians who participate in the military or police work. Some of the most devoted to Christ I have known have and continue to do so. They are God's to judge (as are all others).
If I am not misinformed, those who were said to have killed Osama were shortly thereafter themselves all killed in a helicopter crash.
That appears to be a myth. The helicopter crash (it was shot down) had a number of men on board that were members of SEAL Team 6, the same group that those who killed Osama belonged to. I have seen nothing that indicates the same people that were on the Osama raid were in this crash. I believe the SEAL Teams each have about 120 men.
They are certainly not around to ask, but excepting the possibility of divine revelation how could they possibly have known God authorized them to do so? Shall we say that any letter of marque by any ruler sufficient to establish such a justification?
We could ask the same question regarding how the Babylonians knew God wanted them to attack Israel and carry them into captivity. Seems that the answer would be the same.
I won't be setting out patriotic decorations in my current role, but I may be asked to ensure that a war glorification video makes its way to the projector for all the congregation to see. Thoughts of resignation come to mind.
May God guide you and bless you as you struggle over this matter. I would not want to see that in church; I don't even like to see the flag on display.

Bless you, I will pray for you!

Homer

thrombomodulin
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by thrombomodulin » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:41 pm

Homer,

I appreciate your comments and prayers.
Homer wrote:
... excepting the possibility of divine revelation how could [a soldier] possibly have known God authorized them [to kill]? Shall we say that any letter of marque by any ruler is sufficient to establish such a justification?
We could ask the same question regarding how the Babylonians knew God wanted them to attack Israel and carry them into captivity. Seems that the answer would be the same.
It has been well known that murder is a sin since the beginning of creation. If God has indeed given all men everywhere a command not to kill one another, then would it not follow that any man who does so is committing the sin of murder, unless there are specific divine instructions to do otherwise (e.g. the conquest of Joshua, or Genesis 9:6)?

I am not aware of a place in scripture that affirms the Babylonians knew God had wanted them to attack Israel. If indeed this is so, then they were ignorant God's plans and their slaying of the Israelites was an act of rebellion against God in so far as they knew. Is this not sufficient to prove the culpability of the Babylonian army? The same criteria would apply to others who participate in war.

Pete

rcassell
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:58 pm

Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by rcassell » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:47 pm

In response to several comments above:

I assume that I am the alleged rock thrower. If so, I wasn’t intentionally doing so. But, within a group of professing Christians, I expect to be able to expound true Christian principles without regard for worldly opinions or groups. I posted the question, truly looking for preachers that I can trust to listen to. And, thanks to some of the brethren on the site, I received some great information for sources that are helping me. Thank each of you for your help.
Second, I ask the moderator of the site: Since I am new, and not yet acquainted with the modes of operation on this site, did I cross lines, making my posts inappropriate? I certainly am not trying to cause conflict on the site. But, the fact is that true Christianity is offensive, particularly to Christendom followers. Please let me know if my posts have been out of line, and I will try to adjust them accordingly in the future.
I will try to make this response to some of the above comments as brief as possible. But, there are some important points of clarification that I would like to make. First, with regards to taking a strong stand against Christians serving in the military, this is not a personal conviction. It is a clear teaching from Scripture. It isn’t optional. The Lord Jesus Christ was a pacifist, and we are commanded to “walk as He walked.” In addition, the apostles, the early church in the Bible and the early church in Christian history up until 325 AD were all ardent, uncompromising pacifists. These are indisputable facts. By some of the comments made in this thread about honoring or not honoring soldiers, the early church would have to be considered serious violators in not honoring soldiers. Up until the time of Constantine (325 AD), professing Christians joining the military were excommunicated from the church. All I have done is to believe the commands of the Lord and recite the teaching of the Bible, which was practiced in the early church.
I certainly have no animosity towards soldiers. In fact, I have compassion towards them and feel great remorse for them. These men and women are putting their lives on the line for us. They truly and honestly believe that they are doing good for themselves, their neighbors and their country. And why wouldn’t they? The average American preacher honors them from the pulpit, and encourages them in their pursuits. America’s military is held forth as the preserver of liberty from most pulpits. Yet according to God, liberty is a gift from God. In 2 Corinthians 3:17, God tells us: “Now the Lord is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” The problem we run into is that American churches and pastors have confused Christian / Biblical liberty with nationalist liberty. According to God in 1 Corinthians 7:21 – 22 (among other places), nationalist liberty is of no consequence or importance to the Christian.
Are soldiers correct in their beliefs that they are doing a godly work? Certainly not, according to the Lord's walk and His commands. If not, it is the responsibility of preachers to tell them the truth from the pulpit. Therefore, my contention is not with the soldiers. It is with the wolves in the pulpit who mislead the soldiers, who are unwilling to preach the Lord's commands. For anyone who understands the Bible, it is apparent that most preachers are deceived, and preach a false christ and a false gospel. If a pastor can pray to his god that he bless men as they pursue killing others, then that pastor has revealed himself as a messenger of Satan - a wolf in sheep’s clothing. The tragedy that we encounter for soldiers is that the impending judgment for the wolves will not save the poor victims of their false message from God’s promises of judgment for those outside of Christ. That is why it is so important for us to pray for our neighbors in the military.
One thing is for sure. Killing people is not a matter of situation ethics. God has clearly laid out in the Bible, rules that dictate the accountability of killing others. For my neighbors in the military, I wish for them God’s blessings, which can only come upon them if they follow His commands. My desire is for their good. Therefore, with the Lord’s warning in Matthew 26:52, “Then said Jesus unto him, “Put up again thy sword into his place, for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword,’” I have to question the wisdom of encouraging, commending, and even thanking people for military service. We are not loving our neighbor when we encourage them along a path that will ultimately result in their destruction. If we loved them, we would tell them the truth and warn them to flee from the wrath to come.
In trying to love my neighbors in the military, I pray for the salvation of soldiers, that God will save them out of military service so that they will not encounter this judgment that He forewarned. I also pray for the safety of Christians in lands being attacked, particularly by American troops. But, I also pray that the soldiers not kill anyone, in order that they not have those deaths on their record at the day of reckoning. I certainly do not engage in, or encourage those who would protest against soldiers, especially fallen ones. Such conduct is disgusting, and could not be more un-Christ-like. I am ashamed to be grouped with people of such conduct. But, we must always remember, that Satan loves to operate under the guise of Christianity. He does some of his most devastating work against unbelievers under the guise of so called “Christianity.”
Regarding my comments about conservatives and liberals, I might need to clarify those briefly also. I am neither a conservative nor a liberal. I am a Christian. My comments were merely aimed at pointing out the dangers of worldly conservatism. The political conservative movement is generally moral and law abiding, but is militantly nationalistic and patriotic. The political liberal movement is generally amoral and humanistic, but tends to be more compassionate towards others. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. I find it “funny” that liberals are bashed for supporting murder in the form of abortion, while conservatives are considered to be moral because they oppose the practice (as they should.) Yet the conservatives are usually much more engaged in endorsing the killing of anyone in the world that the United States government hints at being a “threat” to American liberty or democracy. And the conservatives are the moral ones? Personally, I want no association with either group, or anything political. The inference that I was making is that if a Christian is going to join himself to worldly groups, he needs to be honest about the true nature and presuppositions of the group that he has joined the Lord’s name to. I think that it is important to remember that it was the most conservative element of Judaism, whose loyalty was also to their nation, who most hated the Lord and ultimately killed Him. In fact, nationalism was Caiaphas’ reason as to why the Lord had to be murdered. In John 11:49 – 50, God tells us, “And one of them named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, “Ye know nothing at all, nor consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.”

Thanks again for the information from those who were willing to help me.

Ron

thrombomodulin
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by thrombomodulin » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:02 pm

Ron,

Are you affirming that no one at all is ever authorized to take the life of another person? Would you be able to explain how your view fits with Genesis 9:6 and Romans 13:4 which, prima facie, appear to grant divine authorization for some uses of lethal force? If lethal force is indeed authorized in some circumstances, could you please describe what those circumstances are? If not, I would like to ask if your view is compatible with any form of government at all -- that is to say, if anarchy does not necessarily result from your views on the use of lethal force.

Thanks
Pete

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by Homer » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:53 am

Pete,

You wrote:
I am not aware of a place in scripture that affirms the Babylonians knew God had wanted them to attack Israel. If indeed this is so, then they were ignorant God's plans and their slaying of the Israelites was an act of rebellion against God in so far as they knew. Is this not sufficient to prove the culpability of the Babylonian army? The same criteria would apply to others who participate in war.
I do not believe they knew God's will in the matter, or that they even acknowledged God. But God "took credit" for their action, carrying out His punishment. But their motive in doing so was evil, and God in turn punished them! But what if their actions had been motivated by faithfulness to God?
If God has indeed given all men everywhere a command not to kill one another, then would it not follow that any man who does so is committing the sin of murder, unless there are specific divine instructions to do otherwise (e.g. the conquest of Joshua, or Genesis 9:6)?


In Joshua's case, he and his army were in God's will, and in the case of Jericho were successful because they obeyed His explicit instructions which were an obvious test of faith. In those instructions was the order to kill everyone except Rahab. So in the case of the Babylonians their hearts were bad and the Joshua and his army were evidently not, thus Joshua is listed among the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11.

In Romans 13 we read:

Romans 13:1-4, New American Standard Bible (NASB)
1. Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4. for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

In the context of Paul's letter to the Romans I think the person's carrying out the punishment of the evildoers would have been the Roman army. There didn't seem to any local police force as we know of. Could the Cornelius of the story in Acts have been involved in such activity post-conversion?

Now consider those who killed Bin Laden. Were they carrying out God's punishment as per Roman's 13? Seems quite possible, but perhaps their hearts were as wrong as the Babylonians. Perhaps there was one (or more) Christians among them with the heart of Joshua. Who can say? You referenced Genesis 9:6. It seems to me throughout the ages men corporately have been authorized to do what individuals are not allowed to do.

But all this does not answer whether a Christian can participate. I think of my late brother-in-law when I write this. He was a Christian from the same pacifist tradition I was raised in. He was drafted into the army during the Korean war, did not apply for conscientious objector status, and opted to serve as a non-combatant rather than participating in the killing. He was assigned to the battlefield to pick up the dead, an extremely stressful and dangerous assignment.

Can a Christian serve in the military or the police? Not an easy question; I can not judge those who do. First of all because it is not my place to condemn them and second because I have no clear answer.

thrombomodulin
Posts: 431
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: Preachers who do not advocate war from the pulpit

Post by thrombomodulin » Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:45 pm

Homer wrote:But what if [the Babylonians] actions had been motivated by faithfulness to God?
Are you affirming that they could have been motivated by faithfulness to God, sans divine revelation being given to them to attack the Israelites? I do not see this could be possible.
Homer wrote:In Joshua's case, he and his army were in God's will ... because they obeyed His explicit instructions
I agree. The explicit instructions take precedence over the more general law prohibiting murder.
Homer wrote: In the context of Paul's letter to the Romans I think the person's carrying out the punishment of the evildoers would have been the Roman army. There didn't seem to any local police force as we know of.
I agree, as far as I am aware, the distinction between police and military is a recent and welcome development that would not have been practiced in ancient times. That distinction, however, is now being eroded. I do wonder whether the authorities of which Paul spoke were only such men as lived in his own time. That is to say, his letter does not necessarily tell anything about the nature of other rulers who would arise afterwards.
Homer wrote: Could the Cornelius of the story in Acts have been involved in such activity post-conversion?
Probably, but we aren't informed by scripture if Cornelius was acting faithfully or unfaithfully by doing so.
Homer wrote:Now consider those who killed Bin Laden. Were they carrying out God's punishment as per Roman's 13? Seems quite possible, but perhaps their hearts were as wrong as the Babylonians. Perhaps there was one (or more) Christians among them with the heart of Joshua. Who can say? You referenced Genesis 9:6. It seems to me throughout the ages men corporately have been authorized to do what individuals are not allowed to do.
What we can, I think, say is that unless God granted those men some divine revelation informing them that they should take Osama's life that they must have been engaged in wrongdoing. I am open to the possibility that this revelation could perhaps have been established by Genesis 9:6. Genesis 9:6 doesn't affirm that it requires a corporate implementation. Of course, this verse does not justify taking the life of a person who himself had not formerly committed the sin of murder. Therefore, it seems inapplicable to most situations in war.
Homer wrote:Can a Christian serve in the military or the police? Not an easy question; I can not judge those who do. First of all because it is not my place to condemn them and second because I have no clear answer.
It is certainly not an easy question, however, my present understanding is that such activities are necessarily wrong without a divine revelation authorizing the use of the lethal force.

Post Reply

Return to “Teachers, Authors, and Movements”