Rapture by NT Wright

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paulespino
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Rapture by NT Wright

Post by paulespino » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:06 am

NT Wright commenting about the Rapture posted in Youtube, video is about 5 min.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvOig4sH6Ic

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psimmond
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Re: Rapture by NT Wright

Post by psimmond » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:55 pm

That's one view.

I think he's being a tad deceptive to make it sound like the idea of a rapture comes from one verse being misinterpreted.
He focuses on 1 Thes 4 but doesn't mention 1 Cor 15:52, Dan 12:1-2, Matt 24:29-31, Mar 14:62, etc. I think when you read all of these, it is quite easy to believe that there will be a literal rapture at some point.
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Paidion
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Re: Rapture by NT Wright

Post by Paidion » Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:27 pm

I listened to the video. I am wondering if it is the idea of a "pre-trib rapture" to which N.T. Wright is objecting.
He affirms that I Thess 4 is about the second coming of Christ. I also think Wright is right about the figure of the people of a city going out to meet a conquering king and ushering him back to the city. Why couldn't this be the case in the second coming? The passsage in I Thess 4 states that those who are alive and remain at His coming will be caught up together and meet Him in the clouds. I have presumed for the last 18 years that after having met Him in the clouds, they will then "escort" Him back to earth in joy! What a victory—the returning Messiah! I don't see what the problem is for some. Why shouldn't the catching up into the clouds be called a "rapture"? (though this word isn't found in the scripture).

Second-century Christians believed that Christ will return immediately after a time of great tribulation. Then He will defeat His enemies (not necessarily militarily), and will establish the culmination of His kingdom. All the kingdoms of this world will become the Kingdom of God and of His Messiah permanently. This position is known as "historic pre-millenialism" and is the eschatology to which I subscribe. But I'm not dogmatic about it. If things turn out differently from my expectation, it won't bother me at all!
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Re: Rapture by NT Wright

Post by willowtree » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:11 pm

Paidion wrote:I listened to the video. I am wondering if it is the idea of a "pre-trib rapture" to which N.T. Wright is objecting.
One distressing thing I find about a pre-trib rapture, or anything short of a post-trib rapture is that the separation of believers before judgement is like pronouncing a sentence before the believer/non-believer has been brought to trial. That is not generally the order in which justice proceeds. First the accused person is brought to trial, then he presents his defence against the accusations, a verdict is rendered and sentence pronounced. For some to be vacuumed up from the earth to be with the Lord and to enter into his glory as if they had been tried, judged and found worthy, while others who thought they should have been included were, by their not being included, discovered that an unfavourable sentence had been imposed on them without recourse to a defence, does not seem me to be a fair process of justice.

If, on the other hand, the rapture takes place at the end of the age, then all, believers and unbelievers alike, are not pre-sentenced before all are brought to trial, and given opportunity to present their defences. This is the picture I see in Matthew 25. Strange, that among the ones who were ushered into the kingdom, were some who did not know why they made it, and undoubtedly there would be, among the 'goats' some who wondered why they hadn't? It makes no sense to me to have a sentence pronounced upon people before a trial, in which this kind of confusion abounds.
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psimmond
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Re: Rapture by NT Wright

Post by psimmond » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:52 pm

Paidion,
That is what Wright proposed in Surprised by Hope. He may be right but I didn't find his argument too persuasive; however, I do agree with Wright and others that the idea of a pre-trib rapture makes little sense.
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Paidion
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Re: Rapture by NT Wright

Post by Paidion » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:47 pm

So do I. I don't think that, throughout the church ages, anyone thought of the idea of a pre-trib rapture until about 1830.
I am inclined to believe in a post-trib rapture that will mark the second coming of Christ. I think this was the position of the early church.
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Re: Rapture by NT Wright

Post by darinhouston » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:54 pm

I don't think he's making a point specific to whether a rapture is pre-trib, etc. I think he's making the point that the rapture won't necessarily be literally as it is portrayed, and that it isn't to "haul us off" to a heavenly realm, but instead is symbolic to demonstrate that He will come and that we will be anxious to see Him and that He is coming to rule here. (sort of a teaching against pre-trib, I guess, but implicitly so).

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