Steve, do you have a statement of your beliefs somewhere? I looked at TheNarrowPath and could not find one.
Since you seem to have a group of followers, I was wondering if you have a public display somewhere of where you stand on issues? The trinity, for one; eschatology; salvation, etc. All the typical things you'd find in a church's mission statement. Please, don't send me to your lectures -- I'm looking for something much more concise.
TIA,
JJB
Steve's mission statement
Steve's mission statement
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Aole Opala No
Hi JJB,
I have previously responded to a similar inquiry at the following thread: http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.ph ... essentials
There is generally a difference between what people call a "statement of purpose" or "mission statement," on one hand, and a "statement of faith," on the other. It may be that you are using the terms interchangably, but you may be interested in both.
First, if I were to formulate a personal mission statement, I think I could do no better than to repeat that which was said of Ezra, that he "had prepared his heart to seek the law of the Lord, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments" (Ez.7:10).
With reference to the second, I have often been asked to post a “Statement of Faith” for this ministry. Since this ministry is comprised of a partnership of many volunteer helpers and supporters, who, presumably, represent a number of backgrounds and denominations, it would be impossible to come up with any but the most general statement of faith that would apply to all. Such a statement of faith would resemble the earliest known creed of the Christian church, which is comprised of only three words: “Jesus is Lord.”
The various branches of this ministry (i.e., on The Narrow Path radio broadcast and website, including the Internet Bible Forum) present the ideas of hundreds of different participants, but none so prominently as those of myself. Therefore, in order to assist those who are looking for a label to place upon my theology, I will itemize those beliefs that most characterize my attitudes and ministry.
1. I believe in the God of the Bible. He is presented there (I believe) as a complex being having three Persons—the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not explain in what sense these three actually comprise the one true God, so I am open to those whose explanations may differ from my own theories on the subject. It is enough (and all that Scripture permits) to say that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all individually declared to be “God” in Scripture, though there is the equal insistence upon there being only one God. I have no problems with the trinitarian formulation that was codified at Nicea, and can express my position in similar terminology. However, there were ten generations of true Christians prior to the Council of Nicea, who did not have the benefit of that formulation, and may, therefore, have given slightly different explanations of their own trinitarian understanding. True Christians may understand the Holy Trinity in other terms than I myself do, without incurring any condemnation from me—nor, I hope, from God.
2. Even more important than an understanding of God’s triune nature (which He never explains, and never insists that people must understand or know) is the presence in the believer of a growing appreciation of His character and sentiments, which He quite declares plainly, and insists that men must know—“…‘let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am Yahweh, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight,’ says Yahweh” (Jer.9:24). This knowledge of God is not so much the ability to repeat on command proper doctrinal statements about Him, but it consists in actually knowing Him as a personal Reality, and growth in that knowledge of Him through a devoted and obedient life, walking before Him and trusting in Him as a child does with a father.
3. I believe that God is the Creator of all things, and is thus also our Maker. This fact gives Him absolute authority over all things—an authority to which we must lovingly and trustingly submit with joy. God made us to know and commune with Him forever. Toward this end, God has revealed Himself and His will to mankind in various ways. He has made His majesty known through the Creation, and His moral nature known by the gift of conscience to every human being. Additionally, He made Himself specially known to the children of Israel, by mighty deliverances and by sending inspired prophets, whose writings comprise the Old Testament Scriptures. These documents preserve the God-breathed oracles and the narratives of redemptive history, and are thus “profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
4. Our intended communion with God has been interrupted, however, by our sin, which is comprised of selfishness and rebellion against His rule. Thus God could say of each of us, as He said of Israel of old, “they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them” (1 Sam.8:7). Such rebellion against the rule of God places us in the position of being His enemies. Having taken this stance of opposition to God, we have become alienated from that eternal life of communion that He intended for us, and have become subject to His wrath, and future judgment.
5. In addition to the great self-revelations mentioned above, God has further revealed Himself in the Incarnation, through which He Himself assumed a human form and nature, and lived among men. By this action, He revealed His heart and character more unmistakably than He had previously done through any earlier manner of self-revelation. This incarnation of God was revealed in the historical man, Jesus of Nazareth. He was the one that the prophets foretold, who would come as Messiah (or Christ) and would ransom the world from the bondage of sin by His sacrificial death. This He did when He, though sinless and innocent, was unjustly condemned by those whom He created and whom He had come to save, and was fastened with spikes to a Roman cross. His blood, being thus shed, was accepted as an atoning sacrifice before the throne of God as payment on our behalf of every debt that we had incurred before God through our sins. Three days after His execution, Jesus returned to life from death, and was thereafter encountered by several hundred witnesses, who thereafter testified to the world that He is even now alive and seated in the place of supreme authority at the right hand of His Father in heaven.
6. I believe that Jesus of Nazareth, having been glorified in His resurrection, is now entrusted by God the Father with all authority in heaven and on earth, and requires that all of mankind come to know Him in this capacity, as their compassionate King. To know Him in this way requires that one turn from his/her selfish course of life, acknowledging that such a life has been the occasion of alienation from God and has incurred His righteous condemnation. That one must also, through true love and gratitude toward Him, place his/her total confidence in Him as the one through whom access to and relationship with God has been restored. This loving confidence includes a commitment to trust Him with all things pertaining to life, and to obey Him as Sovereign Lord. The one coming to Him on these terms receives a miraculous, inward spiritual rebirth, and Christ’s own Spirit is given to dwell within him/her. This Spirit thereafter guides and enables the believer to live a life pleasing to God. Those who have made this surrender to the lordship of Christ are known as disciples, and have become the subjects of an ever-expanding Kingdom, which is comprised of all who live or have lived as subjects of the King Jesus throughout history, the world over. This Kingdom is destined to increase, like a tiny seed growing into a tree, or like a pinch of yeast spreading throughout a lump of dough, until it becomes the universal dominion of Christ, when “the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever” (Rev.11:15). I believe that this universal phase of the Kingdom of Christ will not be realized until Jesus actually and physically returns to earth, which He will do at the end of this age.
7. I believe that the disciples of Jesus are distinguished by the fact that they order their lives according to His teachings. “If you continue in my words, you are my disciples indeed” (John 8:31). The primary outcome of devotion to the King is submission to the “Royal Law”—expressed in the words, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (James 2:8) and “Love one another as I have loved you” (John 13:34). Authoritative instructions in the path of divine love are found in the teachings (and example) of Jesus (recorded in the four Gospels in the New Testament), as well as in the preserved writings of the emissaries (or apostles) whom Christ authorized to speak, after His departure, in His stead. Thus, the writings of these inspired men in the New Testament are authoritative in all matters of faith and of practice for the disciples of Jesus. Along with the writings of the Old Testament prophets, these writings make up the sacred scriptures, to which all Christians must be subject, as unto God Himself, who gave them.
8. Supreme among the duties of mankind is that of loving and seeking for the truth about God, so that we may know how to live in a manner that pleases Him and brings Him glory. As a result of such a pursuit, I have come to hold a great number of additional beliefs on topics much less central to the concerns of the Kingdom of Christ than those itemized above. I openly express these beliefs frequently through various media. I consider only those beliefs itemized above to be the core concerns of Christianity, and they are the only theological issues upon which I would judge another to be a Christian or not, and upon which I would base any decisions concerning Christian fellowship. More to the point than that of detailed agreement is concern for the love of the truth. Many people, who would verbally affirm similar doctrinal commitments to my own, might not exhibit an integrity of life or a determination to pursue the truth. I would question the presence of the Spirit of Christ in these more than I would in those whose doctrines fall somewhat short of perfection, but who are passionately desiring to know the truth. Jesus is the Truth. Those who sincerely seek Him with all their hearts (in my opinion) will be led by Him as sheep by a shepherd. They will benefit from His ransom, and be found acceptable to Him (Prov.2:1-5/ Acts 10:34-35/ Heb.11:6).
I have previously responded to a similar inquiry at the following thread: http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.ph ... essentials
There is generally a difference between what people call a "statement of purpose" or "mission statement," on one hand, and a "statement of faith," on the other. It may be that you are using the terms interchangably, but you may be interested in both.
First, if I were to formulate a personal mission statement, I think I could do no better than to repeat that which was said of Ezra, that he "had prepared his heart to seek the law of the Lord, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments" (Ez.7:10).
With reference to the second, I have often been asked to post a “Statement of Faith” for this ministry. Since this ministry is comprised of a partnership of many volunteer helpers and supporters, who, presumably, represent a number of backgrounds and denominations, it would be impossible to come up with any but the most general statement of faith that would apply to all. Such a statement of faith would resemble the earliest known creed of the Christian church, which is comprised of only three words: “Jesus is Lord.”
The various branches of this ministry (i.e., on The Narrow Path radio broadcast and website, including the Internet Bible Forum) present the ideas of hundreds of different participants, but none so prominently as those of myself. Therefore, in order to assist those who are looking for a label to place upon my theology, I will itemize those beliefs that most characterize my attitudes and ministry.
1. I believe in the God of the Bible. He is presented there (I believe) as a complex being having three Persons—the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not explain in what sense these three actually comprise the one true God, so I am open to those whose explanations may differ from my own theories on the subject. It is enough (and all that Scripture permits) to say that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all individually declared to be “God” in Scripture, though there is the equal insistence upon there being only one God. I have no problems with the trinitarian formulation that was codified at Nicea, and can express my position in similar terminology. However, there were ten generations of true Christians prior to the Council of Nicea, who did not have the benefit of that formulation, and may, therefore, have given slightly different explanations of their own trinitarian understanding. True Christians may understand the Holy Trinity in other terms than I myself do, without incurring any condemnation from me—nor, I hope, from God.
2. Even more important than an understanding of God’s triune nature (which He never explains, and never insists that people must understand or know) is the presence in the believer of a growing appreciation of His character and sentiments, which He quite declares plainly, and insists that men must know—“…‘let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am Yahweh, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight,’ says Yahweh” (Jer.9:24). This knowledge of God is not so much the ability to repeat on command proper doctrinal statements about Him, but it consists in actually knowing Him as a personal Reality, and growth in that knowledge of Him through a devoted and obedient life, walking before Him and trusting in Him as a child does with a father.
3. I believe that God is the Creator of all things, and is thus also our Maker. This fact gives Him absolute authority over all things—an authority to which we must lovingly and trustingly submit with joy. God made us to know and commune with Him forever. Toward this end, God has revealed Himself and His will to mankind in various ways. He has made His majesty known through the Creation, and His moral nature known by the gift of conscience to every human being. Additionally, He made Himself specially known to the children of Israel, by mighty deliverances and by sending inspired prophets, whose writings comprise the Old Testament Scriptures. These documents preserve the God-breathed oracles and the narratives of redemptive history, and are thus “profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
4. Our intended communion with God has been interrupted, however, by our sin, which is comprised of selfishness and rebellion against His rule. Thus God could say of each of us, as He said of Israel of old, “they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them” (1 Sam.8:7). Such rebellion against the rule of God places us in the position of being His enemies. Having taken this stance of opposition to God, we have become alienated from that eternal life of communion that He intended for us, and have become subject to His wrath, and future judgment.
5. In addition to the great self-revelations mentioned above, God has further revealed Himself in the Incarnation, through which He Himself assumed a human form and nature, and lived among men. By this action, He revealed His heart and character more unmistakably than He had previously done through any earlier manner of self-revelation. This incarnation of God was revealed in the historical man, Jesus of Nazareth. He was the one that the prophets foretold, who would come as Messiah (or Christ) and would ransom the world from the bondage of sin by His sacrificial death. This He did when He, though sinless and innocent, was unjustly condemned by those whom He created and whom He had come to save, and was fastened with spikes to a Roman cross. His blood, being thus shed, was accepted as an atoning sacrifice before the throne of God as payment on our behalf of every debt that we had incurred before God through our sins. Three days after His execution, Jesus returned to life from death, and was thereafter encountered by several hundred witnesses, who thereafter testified to the world that He is even now alive and seated in the place of supreme authority at the right hand of His Father in heaven.
6. I believe that Jesus of Nazareth, having been glorified in His resurrection, is now entrusted by God the Father with all authority in heaven and on earth, and requires that all of mankind come to know Him in this capacity, as their compassionate King. To know Him in this way requires that one turn from his/her selfish course of life, acknowledging that such a life has been the occasion of alienation from God and has incurred His righteous condemnation. That one must also, through true love and gratitude toward Him, place his/her total confidence in Him as the one through whom access to and relationship with God has been restored. This loving confidence includes a commitment to trust Him with all things pertaining to life, and to obey Him as Sovereign Lord. The one coming to Him on these terms receives a miraculous, inward spiritual rebirth, and Christ’s own Spirit is given to dwell within him/her. This Spirit thereafter guides and enables the believer to live a life pleasing to God. Those who have made this surrender to the lordship of Christ are known as disciples, and have become the subjects of an ever-expanding Kingdom, which is comprised of all who live or have lived as subjects of the King Jesus throughout history, the world over. This Kingdom is destined to increase, like a tiny seed growing into a tree, or like a pinch of yeast spreading throughout a lump of dough, until it becomes the universal dominion of Christ, when “the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever” (Rev.11:15). I believe that this universal phase of the Kingdom of Christ will not be realized until Jesus actually and physically returns to earth, which He will do at the end of this age.
7. I believe that the disciples of Jesus are distinguished by the fact that they order their lives according to His teachings. “If you continue in my words, you are my disciples indeed” (John 8:31). The primary outcome of devotion to the King is submission to the “Royal Law”—expressed in the words, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (James 2:8) and “Love one another as I have loved you” (John 13:34). Authoritative instructions in the path of divine love are found in the teachings (and example) of Jesus (recorded in the four Gospels in the New Testament), as well as in the preserved writings of the emissaries (or apostles) whom Christ authorized to speak, after His departure, in His stead. Thus, the writings of these inspired men in the New Testament are authoritative in all matters of faith and of practice for the disciples of Jesus. Along with the writings of the Old Testament prophets, these writings make up the sacred scriptures, to which all Christians must be subject, as unto God Himself, who gave them.
8. Supreme among the duties of mankind is that of loving and seeking for the truth about God, so that we may know how to live in a manner that pleases Him and brings Him glory. As a result of such a pursuit, I have come to hold a great number of additional beliefs on topics much less central to the concerns of the Kingdom of Christ than those itemized above. I openly express these beliefs frequently through various media. I consider only those beliefs itemized above to be the core concerns of Christianity, and they are the only theological issues upon which I would judge another to be a Christian or not, and upon which I would base any decisions concerning Christian fellowship. More to the point than that of detailed agreement is concern for the love of the truth. Many people, who would verbally affirm similar doctrinal commitments to my own, might not exhibit an integrity of life or a determination to pursue the truth. I would question the presence of the Spirit of Christ in these more than I would in those whose doctrines fall somewhat short of perfection, but who are passionately desiring to know the truth. Jesus is the Truth. Those who sincerely seek Him with all their hearts (in my opinion) will be led by Him as sheep by a shepherd. They will benefit from His ransom, and be found acceptable to Him (Prov.2:1-5/ Acts 10:34-35/ Heb.11:6).
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Steve, I had to spend a lot of time thinking about the statement of faith you posted. I had a lot of red flag reactions to it and I couldn't figure out why.
Then I saw in another thread where someone was denying the trinity, another poster asked for clarification from you, you popped in to say you would not clarify.
After much prayer and thought I'd like to ask you this: Are you a modalist?
For anyone wondering, here is a definition from carm.org of modalism:
Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.
Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus, and require baptism for salvation. These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
Then I saw in another thread where someone was denying the trinity, another poster asked for clarification from you, you popped in to say you would not clarify.
After much prayer and thought I'd like to ask you this: Are you a modalist?
For anyone wondering, here is a definition from carm.org of modalism:
Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.
Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus, and require baptism for salvation. These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Aole Opala No
-
_Christopher
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:35 pm
- Location: Gladstone, Oregon
I've heard Steve say many times that he is a Trinitarian. Many people on this forum are also, some are not. Steve simply doesn't make that an issue worth dividing over because Jesus and the apostles didn't. Most Christians today define "orthodoxy" much more restrictive than the bible does, drawing many inappropriate lines in the sand.
I believe Steve is correct in allowing all views to be posted on this forum because as he says, "truth has the best arguments". Those who are sincere seekers of truth do not feel the least bit threatened by other viewpoints. You get any 2 Christians together, you get 3 opinions on any topic
. But when all is said and done, we can still fellowship together and love one another because we all love Jesus.
I believe Steve is correct in allowing all views to be posted on this forum because as he says, "truth has the best arguments". Those who are sincere seekers of truth do not feel the least bit threatened by other viewpoints. You get any 2 Christians together, you get 3 opinions on any topic
. But when all is said and done, we can still fellowship together and love one another because we all love Jesus.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
Steve, I think it is your manner of speaking. I've thought about that after Christopher posted his reply. The language you use sounds tentative, unsure (from your point #1 "He is presented as a complex being....."). Plus when you did not respond to a direct request in another thread on the trinity, I thought perhaps you were hiding your beliefs.Steve wrote:Hi JJB,
No, I am not a modalist. I am trinitarian. What was it about my statement that raised this question with you?
Also from point #1:
"However, there were ten generations of true Christians prior to the Council of Nicea, who did not have the benefit of that formulation, and may, therefore, have given slightly different explanations of their own trinitarian understanding."
Were Arians saved before the Nicene Council? Scripture tells us no. The Bible condemns those who deny the deity of Christ. The council means little as far as Scripture is concerned.
Also when you say, "In addition to the great self-revelations mentioned above, God has further revealed Himself int he Incarnation, through which He Himself assumed a human form and nature, and lived among men." Sounds like you believe God the Father, became the Son, or the whole Godhead became incarnate.
I think it's just a language thing, I'm reading it differently than you are meaning it. I am glad to have you clear it up for me. Thanks, Steve.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Aole Opala No
There may be more differences than just language, but it's hard to tell. The main thing I would wish to get across is that I am not laying-out my statement of faith as some kind of creed for all Christians to sign-on to. I am a biblical student who is still learning, as the rest of our brethren are.
I have never seen how it would matter if one Christian was a modalist, and another was a trinitarian. The relative impact of these respective beliefs on the Christian discipleship of their adherents has never been clear to me.
You wrote:
"Were Arians saved before the Nicene Council? Scripture tells us no. The Bible condemns those who deny the deity of Christ."
I would be interested in seeing the relevant verses where this condemnation is found.
You wrote:
"Also when you say, 'In addition to the great self-revelations mentioned above, God has further revealed Himself int he Incarnation, through which He Himself assumed a human form and nature, and lived among men.' Sounds like you believe God the Father, became the Son, or the whole Godhead became incarnate."
When I said that God had assumed a human nature, I believe that I was making a comment fully in accord with what the trinity doctrine teaches. Beyond that, regardless what the "trinity doctrine" may teach, I believe it is what the scriptures teach. All non-Arian Christians have affirmed this from the beginning of church history, to my knowledge.
I would be more comfortable than you might be, however, with the affirmation that "the Godhead became incarnate," since Paul said almost these exact words: "In [Jesus] dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col.2:9). I am not a modalist, but the reason that some of my statements may sound modalistic (indeed, the reason that there are modalists in the church) is probably because some of the statements of scripture do sound rather modalistic.
I said I have no problem with the trinitarian formulation of Nicea, but that creed, to my knowledge, has not been canonized. I do not feel that the articulating of my beliefs must slavishly follow any extrabiblical statement to the point of my becoming nervous about using the actual language of scripture.
I believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct (in some sense) and are also one God (in some sense). This much, I believe, is clearly taught in scriture. Do I choose the words "Person" and "Essence" to label these respective senses? It may be acceptable to do so, though none of the biblical writers employed such vocabulary.
The Nicean Creed exceeds the actual data of scripture in terms of specificity and terminology, and I have always professed greater loyalty to scriptural language than to the language of ecumenical councils. While I don't see any significant difference between my grasp of the Godhead and that of the Nicean Council, if I did, it would be because I found (as some Christians I know think they do) a different view taught in scripture.
I don't see that God will fault anyone for choosing scripture over merely human theological documents. But then, I don't know everything about God. He may be concerned about things that I am not aware of. The best I can hope to do is to remain teachable, studious and trusting in His Word. Having done so, I will trust myself to His mercy.
I have never seen how it would matter if one Christian was a modalist, and another was a trinitarian. The relative impact of these respective beliefs on the Christian discipleship of their adherents has never been clear to me.
You wrote:
"Were Arians saved before the Nicene Council? Scripture tells us no. The Bible condemns those who deny the deity of Christ."
I would be interested in seeing the relevant verses where this condemnation is found.
You wrote:
"Also when you say, 'In addition to the great self-revelations mentioned above, God has further revealed Himself int he Incarnation, through which He Himself assumed a human form and nature, and lived among men.' Sounds like you believe God the Father, became the Son, or the whole Godhead became incarnate."
When I said that God had assumed a human nature, I believe that I was making a comment fully in accord with what the trinity doctrine teaches. Beyond that, regardless what the "trinity doctrine" may teach, I believe it is what the scriptures teach. All non-Arian Christians have affirmed this from the beginning of church history, to my knowledge.
I would be more comfortable than you might be, however, with the affirmation that "the Godhead became incarnate," since Paul said almost these exact words: "In [Jesus] dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col.2:9). I am not a modalist, but the reason that some of my statements may sound modalistic (indeed, the reason that there are modalists in the church) is probably because some of the statements of scripture do sound rather modalistic.
I said I have no problem with the trinitarian formulation of Nicea, but that creed, to my knowledge, has not been canonized. I do not feel that the articulating of my beliefs must slavishly follow any extrabiblical statement to the point of my becoming nervous about using the actual language of scripture.
I believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct (in some sense) and are also one God (in some sense). This much, I believe, is clearly taught in scriture. Do I choose the words "Person" and "Essence" to label these respective senses? It may be acceptable to do so, though none of the biblical writers employed such vocabulary.
The Nicean Creed exceeds the actual data of scripture in terms of specificity and terminology, and I have always professed greater loyalty to scriptural language than to the language of ecumenical councils. While I don't see any significant difference between my grasp of the Godhead and that of the Nicean Council, if I did, it would be because I found (as some Christians I know think they do) a different view taught in scripture.
I don't see that God will fault anyone for choosing scripture over merely human theological documents. But then, I don't know everything about God. He may be concerned about things that I am not aware of. The best I can hope to do is to remain teachable, studious and trusting in His Word. Having done so, I will trust myself to His mercy.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
"Were Arians saved before the Nicene Council? Scripture tells us no. The Bible condemns those who deny the deity of Christ."
I would be interested in seeing the relevant verses where this condemnation is found.
Christ's divinity is a very basic Christian belief. There are many verses that point to Jesus' deity. If you deny that, you deny Christ's very nature. If you do not have the life of Christ, through the denial of His nature, you remain dead in sin and God's wrath remains.
I would be interested in seeing the relevant verses where this condemnation is found.
Christ's divinity is a very basic Christian belief. There are many verses that point to Jesus' deity. If you deny that, you deny Christ's very nature. If you do not have the life of Christ, through the denial of His nature, you remain dead in sin and God's wrath remains.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Aole Opala No
-
_Christopher
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:35 pm
- Location: Gladstone, Oregon
JJB wrote:
I too would be interested in seeing your biblical case for making this statement. Would you say that everyone we see in the bible getting saved understood the exact nature of Christ as we have come to understand it today?"Were Arians saved before the Nicene Council? Scripture tells us no. The Bible condemns those who deny the deity of Christ."
I would be interested in seeing the relevant verses where this condemnation is found.
Christ's divinity is a very basic Christian belief. There are many verses that point to Jesus' deity. If you deny that, you deny Christ's very nature. If you do not have the life of Christ, through the denial of His nature, you remain dead in sin and God's wrath remains.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32