Witness Lee's "Local Church" on Bible Answer Man

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Paidion
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Re: Witness Lee's "Local Church" on Bible Answer Man

Post by Paidion » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:22 am

It's time to bring out the truth about that circle of fellowship which refers to themselves as "just the church" but are quick to add "not the only church." The term "local church" refers to a local expression of the Church which Christ founded, and not to a movement.

Back in 2009 Hank Hanegraff retracted his former position against the "Local Church", and affirmed that the Witness Lee quotes in support of that position, were out of context.

An entire issue of the Christian Research Journal (Vol. 32/No. 06/2009) was dedicated to explaining the mistakes in the understanding expressed in "The Open Letter to the LC" from evangelical leaders. Hank wrote in his introduction, "In the mid '70s, the Christian Research Institute in collaboration with researchers Bob and Gretchen Passantino initiated an evaluation of the local churches that would become a fountainhead of misinformation."

As stated in Vol. 32/No. 06/2009 of the CRJ on page 13, "Among the prominent leaders and scholars who signed the letter were some former CRI staff and former and current CHRISTIAN RESEARCH JOURNAL contributors, including E. Calvin Beisner, James Bjornstad, Norman L. Geisler, H. Wayne House, Gordon R. Lewis, Ron Rhodes, and James R. White."

You may read Hank's introduction to this volume of CRJ by clicking on the link below:

We Were Wrong!

In case you wish to purchase that particular issue of the Christian Research Journal, please click on the link below:

Christian Research Journal

By the way, I am NOT an agent for CRJ.

Don
Last edited by Paidion on Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Witness Lee's "Local Church" on Bible Answer Man

Post by Perry » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:21 am

Thanks for posting that link Paidion!

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Re: Witness Lee's "Local Church" on Bible Answer Man

Post by backwoodsman » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:13 pm

Paidion wrote:It's time to bring out the truth
I couldn't agree more. To that end, I asked you several questions in my last post in this thread (4/8/11) that you have yet to answer.

I stand by everything I've said about Witness Lee. What I've said -- and much, much more that anyone who believes in the authority of Scripture would find anti-Biblical, and in not a few cases heretical -- comes from many (well over 100) hours of research, mostly in Witness Lee's own writings. As I said before, all his writings are freely available on the web, where anyone who cares to can see exactly what he said and verify that it hasn't been taken out of context. Defending Lee's teachings and followers, while simply ignoring all the valid, easily verifiable Biblical objections raised by many Christians over many years, seems unlikely to lead one to the truth of the matter.

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Re: Witness Lee's "Local Church" on Bible Answer Man

Post by Paidion » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:50 pm

Backwoodsman wrote:To that end, I asked you several questions in my last post in this thread (4/8/11) that you have yet to answer.
All of your questions are addressed in Vol. 32/No. 06/2009 of the Christian Research Journal, and in a much more thorough way than I would have either the time or the ability to do.
...simply ignoring all the valid, easily verifiable Biblical objections raised by many Christians over many years, seems unlikely to lead one to the truth of the matter.
These "easily verifiable Biblical objections raised by many Christians over many years" have not been ignored in the above-mentioned issue of CRJ. They have been addressed in great detail. Four out of the five parts in its content address the concerns of those who wrote "The Open Letter." The concerns addressed are:

Part 2: On the Nature of God
Part 3: On the Nature of Humanity
Part 4: On the Legitimacy of Evangelical Churches and Denominations
Part 5: On Lawsuits with Evangelical Christians

You suggest that the "over 100 hours of research" have been ignored. So now let's not ignore the many hours of exchange between the "Local Churches" and their opponents, in which the research has been proved to be flawed. As Hank Hanegraaff said, "In the mid '70s, the Christian Research Institute in collaboration with researchers Bob and Gretchen Passantino initiated an evaluation of the local churches that would become a fountainhead of misinformation." (bolding mine).

If Hank who is deeply involved with the Christian Research Institute, and who possessed all the information to which you refer, was convinced through talks with representatives of Living Stream Ministry, that CRI was WRONG in their assessment, then why should I, or anyone else be convinced by the flawed arguments and the out-of-context quotes?

Since you "couldn't agree more" with my desire to bring out the truth, why not get a copy of the relevant issue of the Christian Research Journal, and open your mind to the possibility that you might be mistaken. Hank Hanegraaff and others have listened to the explanations from representatives of the Living Stream Ministry, and found out that they had been wrong. Won't you at least consider those explanations, and the possibility that they could be valid?
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Re: Witness Lee's "Local Church" on Bible Answer Man

Post by steve » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:04 pm

Regardless of their theology, I count any group a "cult" that places their human leader on such a pedestal as that which Witness Lee occupies within that group.

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Re: Witness Lee's "Local Church" on Bible Answer Man

Post by Jepne » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:08 pm

This, below, is from their website. Seems pretty plain. I have been to their gatherings also, consisting of people we have been in the same community with for years and everything they say and do is in adoration of Jesus and the Father and acknowledging the Spirit of God. Some of the younger ones have a way of shouting the name of Jesus, but I have been in denominational churches where the only person allowed to express himself is the 'pastor' - or 'worship team'. Maybe this group's cultural differences seemed a bit strange decades ago, but we are all changing and growing, I hope. Their hymn book is phenomenal - every song is scriptural and expressive of who God is and what His purpose is with us.

They have declared that they are not following a man or a movement, that they believe there are true Christians that are not in their circle of fellowships. I have questioned them closely about these things and was satisfied with everything they said.

Beliefs & Practices
Our Beliefs

The local churches believe that the Holy Bible is the complete divine revelation verbally inspired by the Holy Spirit (2 Pet. 1:21, 2 Tim. 6:12).

The local churches believe that God is the only one Triune God—the Father, the Son, and the Spirit—co-existing equally from eternity to eternity (1 Tim. 2:5a, Matt. 28:19).

The local churches believe that the Son of God, even God Himself, became incarnated to be a man by the name of Jesus, born of the virgin Mary, that He might be our Redeemer and Savior (Jn. 1:1, 1:14, Matt. 1:23).

The local churches believe that Jesus, a genuine man, lived on this earth for thirty-three and a half years to make God the Father known to men (Jn. 1:18).

The local churches believe that Jesus, the Christ anointed by God with His Holy Spirit, died on the cross for our sins and shed His blood for the accomplishment of our redemption (Matt. 3:16, 1 Pet. 2:24, Eph. 1:7a).

The local churches believe that Jesus Christ, after being buried for three days, resurrected from the dead physically and spiritually and that, in resurrection, He has become the life-giving Spirit to impart Himself into us as our life and our everything (Acts 10:40, 1 Cor. 15:4, 1 Cor. 15:45b).

The local churches believe that after His resurrection Christ ascended to the heavens and that God has made Him the Lord of all (Acts 2:33, 2:36).

The local churches believe that after His ascension Christ poured down the Spirit of God to baptize His chosen members into one Body and that the Spirit of God, who is also the Spirit of Christ, is moving on this earth today to convict sinners, to regenerate God’s chosen people, to dwell in the members of Christ for their growth in life, and to build up the Body of Christ for His full expression (Acts 1:8, 1 Cor. 12:13, Rom 8:9, Jn. 16:8, Titus 3:5, Eph. 4:16).

The local churches believe that at the end of this age Christ will come back to take up His members, to judge the world, to take possession of the earth, and to establish His eternal kingdom (1 Thes. 2:19).

The local churches believe that the overcoming saints will reign with Christ in the millennium and that all the believers in Christ will participate in the divine blessings in the New Jerusalem in the new heaven and new earth for eternity (Rev. 20:6, 21:2).
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

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Re: Witness Lee's "Local Church" on Bible Answer Man

Post by Paidion » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:36 pm

It is true that witness Lee, though now deceased, was regarded as a leader, and his writings are often read in the local churches. But his writings do not replace the Bible. Now isn't that the case concerning all influential Christian leaders? Indeed, the apostle Paul was perhaps the main leader of the whole Christian Church in his day. If he was the author of Hebrews, then he wrote over half the books of the New Testament, and over 29% of the "verses." I wonder what percentage of "orthodox" theology has been derived from the words of Paul.

In later centuries, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen, Athanasius, Jerome, Augustine, and many others had a tremendous impact on the church and its theology. In the fourth century, Athanasius was largely responsible for the acceptance of Trinitarianism, and the present "New Testament canon." Later in the same century, Jerome and Augustine spread the fearful news of eternal torment. Augustine brought predestination and eternal security into the Church. In the early 11th century, Anselm brought penal subtitution into the Church, and in the middle ages, Luther brought out his salvation(from hell)-by-faith-alone doctrine, while Calvin echoed the deterministic views of Augustine.

In our own day, Christian writers, theologians, and leaders, both living and dead, have influenced the theological thinking of countless people. It is difficult to avoid being influenced by "one man" where such a man is a powerful leader, and unfortunately, there is always a tendency by some people, to exalt such a man to a degree that borders on worship. I don't think witness Lee particularly stands out in this regard. Indeed, he emphasized that all brothers and sisters in Christ are equals, and encouraged everyone who gathered in Christ's name to freely minister to one another. This is still the practice in the local churches today.
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Re: Witness Lee's "Local Church" on Bible Answer Man

Post by Jepne » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:37 pm

We were told in this group we went to that the writings of anyone were welcome. I know that in time, if there are any boundaries in reality, in their hearts, they will be pushed (we haven't brought up the reconciliation of all things).

They always have a meal after the meeting and we have talked with them extensively around the table till mid-afternoon. A friend came with us this last time and she asked questions as well.

So far, in the meetings, I have been melted in the presence of the Lord, and broken by the beautiful words of the songs. None of that ''walking through this land of woe, just waiting to get to Jordan's stormy shores" or however those songs go. No 'pastor-laity' stuff. No ten-percent requests or commandments. No show that must go on.

We have been to some of what passes as 'home fellowship' here, but this, so far, truly feels like home. Time will tell if it is, in reality. We are hopeful.

Maybe other branches of this group are not like this. I cannot account for them. Maybe we are renegades, but from what they have told us, it is this way throughout their group.
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

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Re: Witness Lee's "Local Church" on Bible Answer Man

Post by backwoodsman » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:01 pm

There's one thing I've tried to emphasize whenever I talk about Witness Lee. It seems as though it may have so far escaped the notice of some, though, so I want to state it again right up front where it will be more difficult to miss:

All of Witness Lee's writings are readily available online for anyone to read at their leisure. There's no need to take my word, or CRI's word, or his followers' word, or anyone else's word, on anything he taught. I strongly encourage anyone interested, especially those Christians who have any contact with Lee's followers, to go directly to the source, read enough to be sure you understand exactly what he taught, in context, and compare it to the Bible and to sound Biblical teaching.
Paidion wrote:All of your questions are addressed in Vol. 32/No. 06/2009 of the Christian Research Journal
If they are, it's certainly not in the half or so of that issue that's available online. Some of the issues are mentioned, and danced around, and Lee's writings are quoted to back up CRI's new position -- but taken out of context, just like they now say they did back when they disagreed with him. I might buy the issue to see the rest of it if anything there made me think it might be worthwhile, but there's nothing new there; and besides, I try to avoid supporting ministries-for-pay.
You suggest that the "over 100 hours of research" have been ignored.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was referring to my own research, that I've done personally, most of it in Lee's writings, to find the real truth of what he taught and what his followers believe. Have you done the same, or are you simply defending something you've already decided is right without ever having actually done your own research?
It is true that witness Lee, though now deceased, was regarded as a leader, and his writings are often read in the local churches. But his writings do not replace the Bible.
If that's true of those you know personally, then they're far from typical of Witness Lee followers. Maybe they've started to see through his false teachings -- but that would make it really odd that they'd read from his books in church. Or, could it be possible that you've been misled again by Lee's doublespeak and self-contradictions?

But your statement is most definitely not true of those I've had the misfortune of having dealt with personally, who were the cause of my having to research Lee in the first place (nor, apparently, of Lee followers in general). They used the Bible only as a springboard into Lee's heretical teachings, which they usually couldn't back up even from Lee's customized Bible, the Recovery Version. That seems to be typical of the group as a whole, and apparently has been for several decades. One way to confirm that would be to get a copy of Neil Duddy's book "The God-Men" -- one of the books Lee and his followers have forced off the market by litigation or the threat thereof, but it's readily available used for a few bucks. Our resident Lee followers could be recognized on nearly every page, and followed the playbook almost to the letter, 30 years after it was written. Oddly, the main character even had a copy in his library, hidden back in the corner on the bottom shelf.

Oh, and Lee was NOT just "regarded as a leader;" as long as he was alive he was THE unquestioned and undisputed leader. Even now, 15 years after his death, whose books did you say your friends pull out in their meetings?
If Hank who is deeply involved with the Christian Research Institute, and who possessed all the information to which you refer, was convinced through talks with representatives of Living Stream Ministry, that CRI was WRONG in their assessment, then why should I, or anyone else be convinced by the flawed arguments and the out-of-context quotes?
Good question, and the good answer is a two-parter:

1. A quote you may have missed in the article "Addressing the Open Letter's Concerns" in the above mentioned issue of CRJ: "CRI considers modalism, such as is taught by the United Pentecostal Church, heretical just as much now as we ever did." Considering that CRI considers you a heretic, I think it's safe to say you don't accept their judgment on this point -- so why are you so eager to unquestioningly accept their judgment regarding Witness Lee? Those who aren't targeted by that quote will just have to fall back on Paul's many admonitions to check everything against sound doctrine and reject what doesn't measure up -- even if the source claims to be a messenger from God.

2. The flawed arguments and out-of-context quotes seem to me, and many other Christians who have researched them, to be those supporting the suggestion that Lee and his followers are orthodox evangelical Christians.

I'm sorry that at present I don't have the time -- or, frankly, the heart -- to dive deeply into this topic again. I didn't have the time when I did it the first time either, but I didn't really have a choice then. It seems some of my research notes no longer exist, so I can't do your primary research for you, but I'll provide a couple more starting points for those who want to look into it themselves:

Some of my notes on the "Recovery Version," Witness Lee's customized Bible, are in this thread:
http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3539

Apologetics Index has some good material:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/topic/local-church
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/topic/l ... m-ministry

Note especially E. Calvin Beisner's letter on this page:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/846-apo ... itness-lee
The footnotes are easier to read if you blow the images up a bit. I've asked them to post higher resolution images but I don't know if they will.

Here's another document from Beisner, with easy-to-read footnotes:
http://ecalvinbeisner.com/freearticles/ ... Church.pdf

That's more than enough to get anyone started. Again, no need to take anyone's word for what Witness Lee taught -- look up the footnotes in Lee's own books, yourself, and read as much as necessary to be sure you understand them in context, then evaluate his teachings against Scripture.

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Re: Witness Lee's "Local Church" on Bible Answer Man

Post by Jepne » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:16 am

This is an interesting discussion and it has me thinking: every church I have been a part of in my 35 years of learning about God has been considered a cult by those on the outside: churches where I have seen and tasted the life of Christ in the people as we were all being delivered from bondage and being transformed by the renewing of our minds, being filled with the Holy Spirit and operating in the gifts of the Spirit, learning the scriptures about the transforming power of ‘Christ within us the hope of glory’ as we became disciples. No wonder the religious establishment called us a cult.

I went to one of these cult watch sights – where someone has set himself up as judge and jury of what is heretical and what is a cult. The writer said that when a person comes to the Lord, it must be on the basis that if he does not ‘accept Jesus’ or say ‘the prayer’, he believes he will be condemned and go to hell forever. Funny, when I came to the Lord, it was on the basis that I needed a new heart; I needed a new way of living – in fact we sang quite often a song about abiding in the Vine – about our ‘new way of living, a new life divine.” I had no thoughts about heaven or hell or sin – I was just in love with God.

Then, fear came upon us, of being caught short when the ‘Rapture’ came, and as we read Walter Martin’s Kingdom of the Cults – it kept us so busy learning what was wrong with everyone else's beliefs, and full of fear that we should believe the right things that many of us left our first love. We had to be right, or else! But, now I see that I must learn to trust the Spirit of God in me and not be too intimidated to ask questions, and, be willing to stand alone if need be.

I go to an area-wide Bible study where women of all denominations meet and discuss biblical matters (many of the Bibles the women bring to these Bible studies are replete with footnotes by various famous authors which can deter a person from looking at the scripture itself) and my husband grew up here, so I am familiar with much of what is taught here. Any interest in the Holy Spirit is considered ‘airy fairy’, if not occultish. Most of the denominations have views of God and the Bible that range from unscriptural to what I see as perverse. The Fundamentalist Scofield Bible which many still use in these parts is full of Scofield’s notes on how one should interpret the scriptures, and, he says that it is neither the duty nor the privilege of a Christian to obey the words of Jesus Christ as put forth in the Sermon on the Mount. I was instructed by a very popular preacher here that if I believed Jesus required us to be disciples, I was doing “works righteousness”, and would go to hell (most likely forever). He told me that the Sermon on the Mount is for another ‘dispensation’ – wherever Scofield got that word from, I think I know. Discipleship, the way that we live, is more important to Jesus than many words about the Trinity. Thomas Nelson publishers broke a book contract with a woman who said publicly that she didn’t know who could ever understand the Trinity – that she had never heard an explanation that made sense – she was castigated widely for it in the evangelical community – and the world watches.

Another denomination in our area puts forth that man is but a puppet going through pre-determined motions, making pre-determined statements and doing pre-determined things that he is helpless to change. “God is in control” is commonly heard among them.

In yet another church, people are taught ‘worm theology’ - that anything we do that is righteous is but a filthy rag in God’s sight. In a Good Friday service, the pastor, the only one who teaches in that body, seemed to imply that one should feel guilty that Jesus laid down his life to take the condemnation they deserved (from a loving God who desires that all men should come and learn of him). Not a word about the transformation that Christ’s death made possible for us to receive. Oh, He loves us, but He will take the life of your child if you love the child too much and need to learn a lesson! Many believe that.

It is just awful. Who ever wants to 'go to church' and listen to this? However, God’s people are to be found everywhere and I love them, and I spend as much time with them as I can and am as much of an encouragement to them as I can be. Our fellowship is in our love for God and our seeking to follow His ways, not in our particular theology. I have even been able to speak with JW’s and Mormons to an extent. It is God’s kindness that leads people to reconsider their ways. There are times to talk about doctrine, but we do not judge other people on that basis, or talk down to them in our arguments and discussions. We love the people.
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

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