Witness Lee's "Local Church" on Bible Answer Man

[Sean]

It was interesting to hear this program. Hank has Local Church (leaders?) on his program and talks with them frankly about them being referred to as a cult and what effect that has had on them. He also asks them straight questions about what they believe. I was happy to see kind of dialogue.

You can hear the extra hour called "Bonus material" at http://www.equip.org It's right on the main page.
The first hour can be heard here: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/bible_answer_man/ I think it's Monday's episode.

[backwoodsman]

I listened to this recently after finding this post. Hanegraaff played some serious softball there. I kept waiting for him to ask some tough questions about Witness Lee's heretical teachings, but he never did. I don't think he even asked them about any doctrinal issue except the trinity, to which they gave more or less their group's standard answer, which seems designed to do exactly what it did -- leave Christians who don't further inquire or research with the mistaken impression that they're trinitarian. Not only are they not, in fact, trinitarian, but Lee's teachings on the nature of God, the relationship between God and man, and a number of other things are as different from Biblical Christianity as is Mormonism.

Most or all of Witness Lee's writings are available on the web for anyone to read, and they'll even send you a free copy of Lee's customized New Testament with his study notes. So anyone who cares to do a little reading can easily see exactly what he really taught, without having to depend on someone like Hank Hanegraaff, who has inexplicably chosen to sweep under the rug all the valid Biblical concerns raised by many over many years. Even the ministry he now heads, in past years, put out some Biblically sound material exposing Lee's false teachings -- and he simply ignores it all with no explanation whatsoever.

[Paidion]

I couldn't disagree with you more, Mr. Backwoodsman. I attended a number of meetings of the local church in this expression of the body of Christ. Much or most of the meeting was taken up in praise of Christ. We also studied booklets containing writings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. They are true Trinitarians. That was one of the main problems I had with the group. I am not a Trinitarian. Their beliefs are not particularly different from that of other evangelical churches. They stress the Christ within and sharing the Christ within among those who gather with them. Everyone is expected to share Christ with the others.

If you are convinced that they are heretics and cultish, please spell out the ways in which this is the case, and give your source.

[charleswest]

Paidon, Backwoodsman, Sean.

Greetings Gentlemen,

Please allow me to recount my own experience with Witness Lee. I saw and heard him teach in person at a particular meeting in the living room of someone's house in Spokane, WA in early September 1972.

This was a small intimate gathering of about 30-40 young people, as many as would fit in the large living/dining room of a turn of the century house. I was sitting on the floor along with the rest, which formed a sort of circle in which Lee preached. At times I was within arms reach of Lee.

What I distinctly remember to this day is the way in which Lee tried to influence the crowd to follow him (Lee, not Jesus) and join his "Local Church" movement.

After saying a few things based in Scripture, he would say the word "Ho!", and the phrase "O Lord Jesus" (and like a cheer leader he would encourage the group to follow suit. After a while there was a sort of cadence that developed. Lee would say a few words, then the people would say or repeat after him LOUDLY - "Ho" or "O Lord Jesus"). I didn't know it then but he was using these phrases as a mantra, a chant to highlight and implant whatever doctrine he was trying to convey into the minds of the people.

I remember just after the meeting sitting in a car being badgered by one of the elders of the house into believing in the Local Church movement, since it was the "only true church". I kept telling the guy that it was wrong and I didn't want to.

Then the following day, all the way home to the Seattle area where I live, the driver kept going on how “they” (the Lee-ites and the Local Church) were going to take over the whole world with their belief system, and something about “spreading the fire”. And of course interspersed with lots of “Ho!” and “O Lord Jesus!”.

I was very happy when I finally got out of that car.

I don’t know anything about the current status of the Local Church. I have heard that Witness Lee has since passed on. I do know that today (2011-04-03) if I were to run into a preacher with the same message, I would declare them to be a “wolf in sheeps clothing” and have nothing further to do with them, and warn others likewise.

Now, I see Lee's movement for what it was at that time as falling into one of two Scriptural categories:

Luke 21:8
And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.

OR

Rev 2:6,15
6) But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
15) So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 3531&t=KJV.
Nicolaitans = "destruction of people"
1) a sect mentioned in Rev. 2:6,15, who were charged with holding the error of Balaam, casting a stumbling block before the church of God by upholding the liberty of eating things sacrificed to idols as well as committing fornication

I was there. I saw and heard these things and remember clearly to this day what it was like.

For The King,
C West

P.S. I have one regret about going to the meeting. While waiting to be picked up to go over to Spokane, I went to a grocery store and bought two or three Hershey's chocolate bars and a package of Colby cheese. Upon arrival at the host's house I asked if I could put my bag of stuff into the fridge. Over the next two days I took a few bites of the cheese and chocolate bars but leaving the unused portions in the reefer to stay cold. But I forgot to take the bag when we left. To this day I want to go back and get it.

Oh well...

[backwoodsman]

Charles, thank you for your comments. What you observed is more or less typical. I'm glad you didn't get sucked in. That was worth the tradeoff for the cheese and chocolate bars.

I couldn't disagree with you more, Mr. Backwoodsman.

I figured that would draw some fire from somewhere.

They are true Trinitarians. That was one of the main problems I had with the group. I am not a Trinitarian.

You really need to do your research a little better. It's a bit surprising that you, not being Trinitarian, were nevertheless left with the impression that they are; but it's a good illustration of how certain words have very different meanings to them than to Christians. I'm going to guess they used the term "Triune God," which you interpreted to mean the Trinity. But to them, it refers instead to their specific brand of quasi-modalism. They're aware of this and other differences in the meanings of words, and they use them to their advantage when dealing with Christians.

Or, if those you met really have deviated so drastically from Witness Lee's teachings as to be Trinitarian, it seems strange they'd still pull out his books in a church meeting, since Lee's teaching on the nature of God is so central to their belief system that a Lee follower who came to understand this point as incorrect would have a hard time continuing to believe the rest of his doctrines.

If you are convinced that they are heretics and cultish, please spell out the ways in which this is the case, and give your source.

You don't need me to point out Witness Lee's heresies -- all you want to know is readily available on the web in clearly articulated and well documented form. As I mentioned, Lee's writings are available as well, so you can easily verify everything yourself. I'll give you a couple links to get you started.

This is a good place to start:
http://open-letter.org

CRI's statement to which I referred is nowhere to be found on their website, but it's available here:
http://localchurch.8m.com/cri-dl-075.html
Most of the source footnotes to Lee's books have been cut off, but it's easy to find the sources by plugging the text you want to find into Google. You can then read it in context and see that they didn't misrepresent his teachings and how far they deviate from scripture. After doing that to your satisfaction, I'm sure you'll agree it's very strange that Hanegraaff has completely reversed CRI's course with not so much as a mention of the scriptural issues, let alone a word of explanation.

My purpose in dredging up this old thread wasn't to discuss Witness Lee's teachings, but simply to put on record here that they are heresies that involve serious deviations from scripture. I'd hate for someone to come here and find a reference to Witness Lee that leaves them with the impression that the major elements of his teachings are in any way Biblical.

[charleswest]

Some back story...

Prior to the event I described above, some representatives from the Local Church came to the small home fellowship I was a member of and shared some of their doctrine, as well as announcing the meeting with Witness Lee in Spokane.

At the same time and a little before this, there was a couple attending the Christian & Missionary Alliance church that the home fellowship was affiliated with and where my parents, brothers and I attended on Sunday.

The couple had become enamored with the Local Church doctrine. I remember one Sunday after church they were out in the parking lot explaining to some Sisters and Brothers why they were leaving to move to Roseburg, Oregon to join a Local Church down there. I joined the circle and we were all praying and trying to explain the error they were following.

They were good people, and I was flabbergasted at how they could be taken in by what to me was so obvious.

[Paidion]

You don't need me to point out Witness Lee's heresies -- all you want to know is readily available on the web in clearly articulated and well documented form. As I mentioned, Lee's writings are available as well, so you can easily verify everything yourself. I'll give you a couple links to get you started.

This is a good place to start:..

.

Okay, I checked out the sites. I now see (from Witness Lee's writings) that they are modalists rather than Trinitarians, even though they use the word "Trinity"as well as "Triunity" in connection to their beliefs. So is this a big heresy for you? I don't consider it any more heretical than Trinitarianism, if we use the teachings of first and second century Christianity as the measuring stick. I fellowship with Trinitarians and I fellowship with modalists. I don't consider theological or philosophical differences as a basis for separation. Our unity in Christ is based upon our submission to Him and to His law as expressed in the "Sermon on the Mount" as well as His other words.

Do you consider the United Pentecostal Church as heretics because of their modalism? Actually all early Pentecostals were modalists. But some of them gradually adopted Trinitarianism.

[Apollos]

Actually all early Pentecostals were modalists. But some of them gradually adopted Trinitarianism.

No, this isn't true. The early Pentecostals were trinitarian (Parham, Seymour, Lake, Evan Roberts, plus their predecessors like Woodworth-Etter and Dowie). Modalism was introduced as a new revelation at an AoG camp meeting in around 1914 or thereabouts.

[backwoodsman]

Okay, I checked out the sites. I now see (from Witness Lee's writings) that they are modalists rather than Trinitarians, even though they use the word "Trinity"as well as "Triunity" in connection to their beliefs.

You seem to have focused on the trinity vs. modalism issue to the exclusion of all else. Did you notice in the CRI paper that Lee simultaneously taught two mutually exclusive forms of modalism? He did that on a number of other points as well. Do you see any problem with a religious leader doing that? Do you find it notable that they use some of the same words as Christians, but attach very different meanings to them -- particularly now that you see you were fooled by that practice? Do you think it might often cause Christians to let down their guard and be deceived, as it did you? What do you make of the other major Biblical problems the CRI paper raises?

[Joseph]

I attended a portion of a Local Church service in Canada and had to flee with my wife and 2 daughters...Bizzare chanting of "amen" after every scripture read as a whole or in part. Watchman Nee would be turning over in his grave if he knew what Witness Lee has done to Nee's teachings...