Steve,
I know you have tons of free time, and would like nothing better than to write a dissertation on an obscure tradition, so could you post some history/highlights of the Mennonites and Anabaptists? If we visit, will my wife and daughter need to don a silly hat? I'm interested in knowing more about them, especially their committment to church as a true community, and social justice. Particular doctrinal stances that may set them apart?
Thanks,
JD
Anabaptists/Mennonites
Anabaptists/Mennonites
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
The history and distinctives of the Anabaptist movement are thoroughly presented in three lectures (#18, 19 and 20) of my "Church History" series which can be downloaded from the "topical lectures" category at my website. In my opinion, the original anabaptists were the true remnant Christians of the sixteenth century.
The movement branched off early in the Swiss Reformation, and took hold in Germany and Holland. They differed from the other reformers in that the anabaptists taught:
1. The Christian is obligated to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ—including a literal interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount (some, like the Amish, practice foot-washing as an act of obedience to Jesus' teaching in John 13);
2. The church is a community of believers, not a religious coalition of everyone born in a given nation (some anabaptists, like the Hutterites, practice community of goods).
3. There should be no State Church, but the church and state have separate spheres and should be separate from each other;
4. The Christian should not fight in war;
5.There is no biblical basis for infant baptism. Infants should not be baptized, and all believers, whether baptized at infancy or not, should be baptized after conversion.
It is because of this last point that they were called "anabaptists" (meaning "re-baptizers"). They did not recognize the validity of the baptism that they and all Europeans of the time had received at infancy. They taught that only believers should be baptized, and so they practiced believer baptism only. This amounted to re-baptizing themselves and other converts who had been baptized as infants.
This practice was very controversial in the sixteenth century, and anabaptists were hunted down and killed by Catholics and Protestants alike. The original founders of the movement were all martyred.
Menno Simons (after whom the Mennonites are named) was a Dutch anabaptist leader. Mennonites are more visible in regular society than are Hutterites and Amish, who usually live in separated community groups.
Mennonite women do cover their heads (following their understanding of 1 Corinthians 11), but there are differences between Mennonite groups in terms of their degrees of legalism. Some Mennonites dress essentially like everyone else, while others seem to wear a distinctive uniform that makes them stand out in a crowd.
Theologically, Mennonites are Arminian (not Calvinistic). They may be amillennial or historic premillennial (though not usually dispensational). They are anti-war, and the more socially progressive ones are often involved in social causes.
Historically, Mennonites have been known as hard-working, honest, simple-living people. Almost every Mennonite I have known (and I know many) has seemed to have been of a milder disposition and a sweeter nature than the average Christian. I don't know if this is cultural or spiritual, but they are fine people to be among...though there are some groups (from what I have been told) that can be very critical and legalistic about such things as plain dress, head-coverings, television, etc.
The movement branched off early in the Swiss Reformation, and took hold in Germany and Holland. They differed from the other reformers in that the anabaptists taught:
1. The Christian is obligated to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ—including a literal interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount (some, like the Amish, practice foot-washing as an act of obedience to Jesus' teaching in John 13);
2. The church is a community of believers, not a religious coalition of everyone born in a given nation (some anabaptists, like the Hutterites, practice community of goods).
3. There should be no State Church, but the church and state have separate spheres and should be separate from each other;
4. The Christian should not fight in war;
5.There is no biblical basis for infant baptism. Infants should not be baptized, and all believers, whether baptized at infancy or not, should be baptized after conversion.
It is because of this last point that they were called "anabaptists" (meaning "re-baptizers"). They did not recognize the validity of the baptism that they and all Europeans of the time had received at infancy. They taught that only believers should be baptized, and so they practiced believer baptism only. This amounted to re-baptizing themselves and other converts who had been baptized as infants.
This practice was very controversial in the sixteenth century, and anabaptists were hunted down and killed by Catholics and Protestants alike. The original founders of the movement were all martyred.
Menno Simons (after whom the Mennonites are named) was a Dutch anabaptist leader. Mennonites are more visible in regular society than are Hutterites and Amish, who usually live in separated community groups.
Mennonite women do cover their heads (following their understanding of 1 Corinthians 11), but there are differences between Mennonite groups in terms of their degrees of legalism. Some Mennonites dress essentially like everyone else, while others seem to wear a distinctive uniform that makes them stand out in a crowd.
Theologically, Mennonites are Arminian (not Calvinistic). They may be amillennial or historic premillennial (though not usually dispensational). They are anti-war, and the more socially progressive ones are often involved in social causes.
Historically, Mennonites have been known as hard-working, honest, simple-living people. Almost every Mennonite I have known (and I know many) has seemed to have been of a milder disposition and a sweeter nature than the average Christian. I don't know if this is cultural or spiritual, but they are fine people to be among...though there are some groups (from what I have been told) that can be very critical and legalistic about such things as plain dress, head-coverings, television, etc.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
I'd recommend Parts 18-20 of Steve's Church history series. The files are available for download in the topical section of thenarrowpath.com
For a very brief history, I'll type out some of the highlights from Ron Rhodes book 'the complete guide to christian denominations'
The anabaptists originated in western europe during the reformation. They are part of the radical reformation in that they wanted to take reformation principle to their full conclusions. They were adament about believers baptism (as opposed to infant baptism), hence their name.
The anabaptists were highly persecuted on three fronts. The Roman Catholic Church persecuted them from not being Roman Catholic. Many protestants were against them b/c they took a stand against Zwingli. The state was against them b/c they were staunch advocates of separation of church and state.
Mennonites are named for Menno Simmons, a dutch radical reformation leader who emphasized: 1)believers baptism 2)anti-trans-substantiation 3)sharing resources 4)pacifism. Eventually, anabaptists came to be known as mennonites
Modern day Mennonite churches in America are diverse. The two extremes are probably best found in comparing the 2 largest mennonite bodies
1) The Mennonite Church: 118,000+ people
--loyalty to God alone and not one's nation
--freedom from traditional Mennonite regulations on attire
--many individual churches practice foot washing
2) Old Order Amish Churches: 80,000+ people
--no assurance of salvation
--services held in homes or barns
--congregation divided by sex and marital status
--cling to 17th century way of life
--discipline by shunning
In Christ,
matthew
For a very brief history, I'll type out some of the highlights from Ron Rhodes book 'the complete guide to christian denominations'
The anabaptists originated in western europe during the reformation. They are part of the radical reformation in that they wanted to take reformation principle to their full conclusions. They were adament about believers baptism (as opposed to infant baptism), hence their name.
The anabaptists were highly persecuted on three fronts. The Roman Catholic Church persecuted them from not being Roman Catholic. Many protestants were against them b/c they took a stand against Zwingli. The state was against them b/c they were staunch advocates of separation of church and state.
Mennonites are named for Menno Simmons, a dutch radical reformation leader who emphasized: 1)believers baptism 2)anti-trans-substantiation 3)sharing resources 4)pacifism. Eventually, anabaptists came to be known as mennonites
Modern day Mennonite churches in America are diverse. The two extremes are probably best found in comparing the 2 largest mennonite bodies
1) The Mennonite Church: 118,000+ people
--loyalty to God alone and not one's nation
--freedom from traditional Mennonite regulations on attire
--many individual churches practice foot washing
2) Old Order Amish Churches: 80,000+ people
--no assurance of salvation
--services held in homes or barns
--congregation divided by sex and marital status
--cling to 17th century way of life
--discipline by shunning
In Christ,
matthew
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
haha, guess steve was posting at the same time as me! Sorry.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
As a person who married a Mennonite woman (my first wife, now deceased) and who taught school in a Hutterite community for three years, I have learned to appreciate Anabaptist people very much indeed.
It was from them that I learned the meaning of true salvation (as opposed to the fundamentalist concepts of propitiation and substitutionary atonement which I had previously espoused. I learned that true discipleship is walking in obedience to the commands of Christ, and then I learned from the bible that ability to do so comes from the enabling grace of Christ made available by His sacrificial death, and appropriated by faith.
I have found that the more modern Mennonites not only dress similar to the general public, but have been influenced more by fundamentalism than traditional Mennonites, and are more likely to believe in propitiation and substitutionary atonement, and the easy gospel in general.
I hesitate to call the Anabaptist mode of dress a "uniform". To them, they are simply dressing modestly. True, the women of some groups do wear almost identical dresses, while the dresses of other traditional groups differ in colour and patterns, although all may be longer than those of the general public. Many modern Mennonites no longer wear a devotional head covering.
If you visit a traditional Mennonite church, you will probably be welcomed. They don't really care whether you wear a "silly hat" or a "non-silly hat" or no hat at all. They have no dress expectations of visitors, and they impose none.
The Hutterite people explained to me that they did not adopt a special style of dress. Rather they have always dressed as the general public dressed in the Tyrol in the 16th century. The Hutterites maintained that style. The rest of the world changed. The Hutterites saw no need to go along with the world with respect to clothing.
In the realm of farming, machinery, etc. they have not only kept up with the rest of the world, but surpassed it in many respects.
It was from them that I learned the meaning of true salvation (as opposed to the fundamentalist concepts of propitiation and substitutionary atonement which I had previously espoused. I learned that true discipleship is walking in obedience to the commands of Christ, and then I learned from the bible that ability to do so comes from the enabling grace of Christ made available by His sacrificial death, and appropriated by faith.
I have found that the more modern Mennonites not only dress similar to the general public, but have been influenced more by fundamentalism than traditional Mennonites, and are more likely to believe in propitiation and substitutionary atonement, and the easy gospel in general.
I hesitate to call the Anabaptist mode of dress a "uniform". To them, they are simply dressing modestly. True, the women of some groups do wear almost identical dresses, while the dresses of other traditional groups differ in colour and patterns, although all may be longer than those of the general public. Many modern Mennonites no longer wear a devotional head covering.
If you visit a traditional Mennonite church, you will probably be welcomed. They don't really care whether you wear a "silly hat" or a "non-silly hat" or no hat at all. They have no dress expectations of visitors, and they impose none.
The Hutterite people explained to me that they did not adopt a special style of dress. Rather they have always dressed as the general public dressed in the Tyrol in the 16th century. The Hutterites maintained that style. The rest of the world changed. The Hutterites saw no need to go along with the world with respect to clothing.
In the realm of farming, machinery, etc. they have not only kept up with the rest of the world, but surpassed it in many respects.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
I was recently surprised to read that many of the early Anabaptists took up arms and fought their persecuters, killing without mercy any suspected of opposing them, and carried their communal living so far as to share all possessions including wives!
The Mennonites arose and saved the movement.
Does anyone have information about this?
The Mennonites arose and saved the movement.
Does anyone have information about this?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
There were earlier movements that rejected infant baptism, and are often, for that reason, called "anabaptists." However, they were more like strange cults than a true reformation movement.
Thomas Muntzer arose as the leader of the "Zwickau Prophets" prior to the anabaptist movement. He stirred up the peasant revolt in Germany, leading to much bloodshed. This movement was brief and unrelated to the later anabaptist movement.
The group you heard about were led by Jan Matthys, who claimed to be the prophet Enoch and expected the end of the world to occur in 1533. Though this was shortly after the beginning of the anabaptist movement, it was not a part of it, but rather a weird cult, following a strange false prophet. This group proclaimed Munster, in Westphalia, to be the New Jerusalem.
Matthys attempted, with his followers, to take over Munster by armed force. There were indeed reports of polygamy practiced in this short-lived group. They were overthrown and Matthys killed in battle, when the bishop of Munster, aided by Catholics and Lutherans, beseiged and recaptured the city in 1535.
Catholics and Reformed Christians often try to defame anabaptists by appeal to such examples, but it would be as fair to debunk Seventh-Day Adventism by an appeal to the alleged misbehavior of David Koresh.
Thomas Muntzer arose as the leader of the "Zwickau Prophets" prior to the anabaptist movement. He stirred up the peasant revolt in Germany, leading to much bloodshed. This movement was brief and unrelated to the later anabaptist movement.
The group you heard about were led by Jan Matthys, who claimed to be the prophet Enoch and expected the end of the world to occur in 1533. Though this was shortly after the beginning of the anabaptist movement, it was not a part of it, but rather a weird cult, following a strange false prophet. This group proclaimed Munster, in Westphalia, to be the New Jerusalem.
Matthys attempted, with his followers, to take over Munster by armed force. There were indeed reports of polygamy practiced in this short-lived group. They were overthrown and Matthys killed in battle, when the bishop of Munster, aided by Catholics and Lutherans, beseiged and recaptured the city in 1535.
Catholics and Reformed Christians often try to defame anabaptists by appeal to such examples, but it would be as fair to debunk Seventh-Day Adventism by an appeal to the alleged misbehavior of David Koresh.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Yes, some so-called "Anabaptists" took up arms and unfortunantly gave all other Anabaptists a bad name.Steve wrote:Thomas Muntzer arose as the leader of the "Zwickau Prophets" prior to the anabaptist movement. He stirred up the peasant revolt in Germany, leading to much bloodshed. This movement was brief and unrelated to the later anabaptist movement.
Let me just say that Anabaptism contains a WIDE spectrum of folks. From hard-core Amish, to super-liberal Mennonites, and EVERYWHERE in between.
I, personally, find my beliefs closest to the early Anabaptists (Swiss Brethren).
I must warn you that some modern Anabaptists have a super-strict position on Divorce and Remarriage.
However, they didn't used to have the position that they do now.
Some Anabaptist churches fortunantly still hold the Biblical view of D/R. However, they are few and far between.
Read more here:
http://loaves.witnesstoday.org/articles/0060/
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Agape,
loaves
"And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves...And they did all eat, and were filled" (Mark 6:41-42)
loaves
"And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves...And they did all eat, and were filled" (Mark 6:41-42)
My having been divorced and remarried has caused a few of my Mennonite friends to avoid my meetings, but that has not been the case with most of the Mennonites in McMinnville, Oregon, where I lived for ten years. They often had me preach for them, and still welcome me to do so when I am available. They are very charitable people.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Some of the Godliest men I have ever met were among the Mennonites or respective subsidiaries. They are usually an all-around group of humble, modest, and sincere folks.Steve wrote:My having been divorced and remarried has caused a few of my Mennonite friends to avoid my meetings, but that has not been the case with most of the Mennonites in McMinnville, Oregon, where I lived for ten years. They often had me preach for them, and still welcome me to do so when I am available. They are very charitable people.
My main concern, however, is that the Mennonite people not develop a "religion" based purely on tradition and heritage. Conviction must originate in the heart.
I have found that most Mennonites will welcome you and fellowship with you whether you are just came off the street, or whether they've known you for the past 20 years.
A group that has "shaken off" some of the "mere tradition" has been the "Charity" or "Godly Home" Churches. Many of you have heard of Brother Denny Kenaston.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Agape,
loaves
"And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves...And they did all eat, and were filled" (Mark 6:41-42)
loaves
"And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves...And they did all eat, and were filled" (Mark 6:41-42)