Consistent Hermeneutics (??)

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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:38 pm

I think it's fair to see it wouldn't hurt at this point to tell us what you're talking about.
Yes, it is too late for James White now.

I have several debates from the 19th century, involving various debaters of considerable ability and reputation, that were transcribed and published. These debates were very popular, drawing people from hundreds of miles, and would go on for days. They were very careful in who they would debate (the books often have all the preliminary correspondence regarding the challenge, worthiness of the opponent, rules of debate, etc.). They were careful to make sure their opponent would be perceived to be at least their equal in education and ability, and during the debate would compliment their opponent's abilities. If you are perceived to have defeated an opponent of lesser stature, that would be no credit to your cause, and it would be very bad for you and your cause if you were perceived to have lost the argument, or no more than held your own.

In one rather lengthy debate, one of the debaters went so far as to build up his opponent's stature, minimize his own, and then brag that he was winning the debate, therefore his opponent's cause was defeated. What he neglected to consider was that his opponent, knowing the debate would be published, was debating in a way that would come across better in the book form. All the smart remarks, derision, and laughter of the crowd in response made little impression in written form, and the book was available to a far wider audience. He and his supporters thought he had attained a great victory, that is, until the book which they published was read. They soon dropped the book and his opponent published it.

I have diverged from the question. James white has far more academic credentials than Steve (Doctorate vs. high school), written books, articles, many debates. It will be a great blow to his cause if he is perceived to have no more than held his own, or lost to Steve, who is not so well known, as I am confident will be the case.
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Post by __id_1095 » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:08 am

Thanks, Homer. I was hoping you would let us in on your secret. BTW, I have enjoyed immensely getting together with Lee every Wednesday night. He and I think a lot alike.
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Post by _Steve » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:26 am

I am very sorry that this debate has come to be seen as a personal competition between the two participants. This will be especially grievous to me if the result is that Dr. White loses some "face" as the result of having agreed to join me on the air. Homer is correct in saying that I have nothing to lose in this debate. I am already a nobody, and my opponent is already a somebody. I have no particular ego attached to my position or my winning a debate. I have always been an educator and a learner, not a celebrity.

I also have no reason to defend my own position beyond the point where the biblical evidence debunks me (if that point should ever come), since I am not a professional theologian on someone's payroll to promote their views. I have no "career" or "standing" that can be damaged by losing a debate, if that should happen.

Dr. White, on the other hand, is a man of potentially great value to the body of Christ in the area of apologetics. He has much at stake. It is no part of my interest to diminish his standing or his reputation. I don't wish to make him look bad (and I am almost relieved when I hear his supporters expressing the opinion that I am the one looking bad in this debate). For that reason, I have not jumped on every exegetical inconsistency or logical fallacy that has come up in his presentations. It would have been impossible (as well as mean-spirited) in the time-frame of the debate.

I have only tried to clarify, for the benefit of the audience, if not for Dr. White himself, where his overall system falls short of presenting the biblical truth about God and man. Fortunately, given the brevity of this exchange, he and I both have radio audiences to whom we can further elaborate, after the debate, upon points that got glossed over too quickly.

I do hope that Dr. White will not have hard feelings when this is over, or have occasion to regret having participated in these broadcasts. I will continue to attempt to show the errors of his system on our final encounter tomorrow, but I hope we can both approach the evidence with a disinterested concern for the truth, rather than fear of being made to look wrong in a personal clash of egos.
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Post by __id_2620 » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:29 am

HI Steve,

I maintain that you are just seeking truth in the matter for you and those who may want some kind of closure on this.

I think you are the one being civil and not waiting like a lion for tomorrows show, like I am sure he is.

And you know, you are a somebody to me, I had found you accidently from umm another site, and I have been blessed ever since. I am truly glad I found you through his web ministry.

The "face" you are concerned about has no particular bearing on you. People just see the fruits that are bore out of our lives. You have no control of that. But your heart will be blessed by the lord for your obediance. You are truly an inspiration to me and I have learned invaluable things from you. Don't feel bad, the Lord will bless you abundantly.

Greg
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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:55 am

Steve wrote:
I am very sorry that this debate has come to be seen as a personal competition between the two participants.
Agreed. I can see now my post could be taken as such. I recall Francis Schaeffer commenting that theological dispute could become a sort of sport. However, the debate is a sort of contest for truth, and I have long been of the opinion that Calvinist doctrine has caused much despair and harm.

Steve says something to the effect that "truth has the best arguments". This is true, but sometimes the better prepared or skilled arguer has a temporary "victory", if it can be called that.
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_darin-houston
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Post by _darin-houston » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:03 pm

This whole "greek syntax vs. greater context and backdrop" debate seems to be at the root of the difference in approach between most of the Calvinists and non-Calvinists I know -- they both claim to exegete and blame the other of eisegesis, they both extend the specific to the general in places, they both incorporate philosophy and accommodate their own pet philosophical constructs to a degree, but the big difference in hermeneutic to me seems to relate to the basic way in which one approaches the text.

With that in mind, I ask the Calvinists among us a serious question I really want their answer to --

Who would be better at interpreting one of my letters to a friend of mine regarding a passionate subject close to my heart which tries to address a number of related, equally passionate issues?

My wife who knows me quite well and has read many of my other letters ? or My College English professor who knows me, but not that intimately, yet understands perfectly proper English sentence structure, verb usage, syntax, etc.? (assuming for the moment that my English grammar even approaches proper usage)
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Post by _Homer » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:30 pm

James White would have us believe there is only one way to properly understand Acts 13:48, but experts in Greek see it in more than one way. Here is an example excerpted from a discussion of the Greek at another website:
If you retain the word order but add a comma, then believed becomes part of the previous phrase:

"...And the gentiles, hearing, were rejoicing and glorifying the Lord's
dictum and trusted, all those being determined at that time into life
eternal"

Or, read it like this:

"...And the gentiles, hearing,
* were rejoicing
* and glorifying the Lord's dictum
* and trusted,
...all those being determined at that time into life eternal"

The event under discussion is the inclusion of the Gentiles, which really
excited the Gentiles. This all relates to the "determinatino" that they were
in life eternal.

It also might read like this, if there is a grammatical reason not to have
EPISTUESAN conjoined with "TA EQNH":

"...And the gentiles, hearing,
* were rejoicing
* and glorifying the Lord's dictum
...and they believed, all those being determined [designated] at that time into life eternal"

In other words:

* Paul announces God's dictum to the Jews - "we've been commanded to turn to the Gentiles"
* the Gentiles, hearing this dictum, rejoice, glorify [applaud?] the dictum
* they believed the dictum, everyone being designated into eternal life
In my opinion, todays debate was the best so far. I thought the new format was much more conducive to a fruitful discussion.
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Post by __id_2645 » Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:57 pm

darin-houston wrote:This whole "greek syntax vs. greater context and backdrop" debate seems to be at the root of the difference in approach between most of the Calvinists and non-Calvinists I know -- they both claim to exegete and blame the other of eisegesis, they both extend the specific to the general in places, they both incorporate philosophy and accommodate their own pet philosophical constructs to a degree, but the big difference in hermeneutic to me seems to relate to the basic way in which one approaches the text.
I disagree, I don’t think the issue is the syntax although the syntax may be a part of the issue. The heart of the issue is the concept being discussed. Syntax would fall into this in that syntax or the way the chosen words are shaped to form a thought are certainly a part of exegesis, because that is how we come to determine the concept. I still haven’t come to an understanding of what the “greater context” means. My understanding of what eisegesis means is the forcing into a given text ones preconceived ideas instead of allowing the text to dictate the idea. An example of this, seems to me would be Gregg’s view that Ro 3 is hyperbole. Clearly if Ro 3 is not hyperbole but means actually what it conveys that all are under sin that no one seeks after God, Gregg would have a serious problem in his apparent world-view. Therefore he makes an argument that the Apostle is limited to the meaning of the terms found in the OT, which enables his hyperbole charge. This argument seems to be dead on arrival for if Jesus Christ and the Apostles were not inspired and allowed to reinterpret the OT in light of the events of the 2nd Advent then the Kingdom has not come and the dispensationalist might be right. Heck even the Arminian concedes Ro 3 is not hyperbole, in fact until I started listen to Gregg I had never before heard of hyperbole being applied to didactic text. Ro 3 isn’t prophecy nor did the Apostle choose to convey his thoughts in apocalyptic type language. The fact Gregg seemingly makes an argument upon the text that no one I’m aware of likewise makes would tend to suggest he is using eisegesis to derive the meaning for without a preconceived bias and based on a plain reading of the 1st 3 chapters it is clear the Apostle is making an argument “all” mankind is under sin, if all are under sin then the Apostle is not using hyperbole but clearly means none are righteous no not one, none seek after God.
darin-houston wrote:
With that in mind, I ask the Calvinists among us a serious question I really want their answer to --

Who would be better at interpreting one of my letters to a friend of mine regarding a passionate subject close to my heart which tries to address a number of related, equally passionate issues?

My wife who knows me quite well and has read many of my other letters ? or My College English professor who knows me, but not that intimately, yet understands perfectly proper English sentence structure, verb usage, syntax, etc.? (assuming for the moment that my English grammar even approaches proper usage)
I don’t understand how your question relates to the matter of syntax and the discussion about who is applying exegesis and who is applying eisegesis. You seem to be presupposing one of the parties in the dispute has a more intimate relationship therefore is in a better position to understand the meaning, is that what you are getting at?

PaulT
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Post by _darin-houston » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:09 pm

I don’t understand how your question relates to the matter of syntax and the discussion about who is applying exegesis and who is applying eisegesis. You seem to be presupposing one of the parties in the dispute has a more intimate relationship therefore is in a better position to understand the meaning, is that what you are getting at?
maybe in some respects -- I'm happy to explain further, but, I would be interested first in your answer without regard to my presupposition -- I'd be happy to discuss my presupposition after we have a basis for agreement or disagreement on this question.
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Post by __id_2645 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:53 pm

darin-houston wrote:
I don’t understand how your question relates to the matter of syntax and the discussion about who is applying exegesis and who is applying eisegesis. You seem to be presupposing one of the parties in the dispute has a more intimate relationship therefore is in a better position to understand the meaning, is that what you are getting at?
maybe in some respects -- I'm happy to explain further, but, I would be interested first in your answer without regard to my presupposition -- I'd be happy to discuss my presupposition after we have a basis for agreement or disagreement on this question.
I'm agnostic as to your presupposition as I don't understand how it relates. Before I can disagree or agree I need to understand how you think the difference between your letters read by either your wife or professor relates to the discussion of syntax.

PaulT
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