Steve addressed a caller on Tuesday (July 12th), and said that he wasn't aware of any Scripture that supports the future restoration of Israel, or any future prophecy regarding Israel. I believe that Isaiah 49 proves that the Abrahamic covenant has not been fulfilled in its entirety.
Jacob (Israel) speaking to Gentile nations: Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
Israel's ultimate restoration: 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength......
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee (past tense), and in a day of salvation have I helped thee (past tense): and I will preserve thee (future tense), and give thee (future tense) for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
Note how Paul only applies part of this verse in 2 Cor 6 to Isaiah 49 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Thus, Israel's inheritance awaits a future fulfillment.
The context here is the Jewish Diaspora of 70 AD: 14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. (see Luke 21:24)
But, God has not forgotten the covenant he made with the patriarchs: 15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. 16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
Restoration of Israel AFTER the Roman Destruction: 17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee. 18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth. 19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away......25 But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children. 26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
I believe the context of Isaiah 49 (and how Paul utilized the text in the NT) bears witness that there is a restoration of Israel which still awaits.
Brian
Restoration of Israel from Isaiah 49
Re: Restoration of Israel from Isaiah 49
[color=#BF0000]I believe the context of Isaiah 49 (and how Paul utilized the text in the NT) bears witness that there is a restoration of Israel which still awaits.[/color]
I agree and i think there are other places that allude to this like Acts 1 when the disciples ask about Israel's restoration Jesus actually affirms it by saying "it's not for you to know the time", meaning there is such a time. Or Matt 23.39 "For i tell you , you will not see me again UNTIL you say "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."
There are other verses like Acts 3 "restore everything as he foretold through his holy prophets."
Many of the spiritual fulfillments are in the Israel of God but there are promises to Jacob which are meant for physical Israel IMO.
I agree and i think there are other places that allude to this like Acts 1 when the disciples ask about Israel's restoration Jesus actually affirms it by saying "it's not for you to know the time", meaning there is such a time. Or Matt 23.39 "For i tell you , you will not see me again UNTIL you say "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."
There are other verses like Acts 3 "restore everything as he foretold through his holy prophets."
Many of the spiritual fulfillments are in the Israel of God but there are promises to Jacob which are meant for physical Israel IMO.
Re: Restoration of Israel from Isaiah 49
Brian,
Your thesis could be right, but it is far from obvious. I have several observations:
1. You say that the diaspora of AD 70 is here referred to. Perhaps so, but what is there in the passage that gives you this information? Why would it not be the diaspora of 586 BC? If God predicted something in the 8th century BC, and the thing predicted actually happened in the 6th century BC, would we not need strong exegetical reasons to affirm that the prediction ignores the near fulfillment, and looks to a distant fulfillment not otherwise mentioned in scripture? Is it not strange that the apostles (if they believed in an eschatological restoration of Israel to their land) never made the slightest mention of such a thing—even in discussing Israel's destiny (Romans 9-11) and in their focused discussions of eschatology (e.g., Matthew 24; 1st and 2nd Thessalonians; 2 Peter 3; the Book of Revelation, etc.)?
2. You are assuming a particular interpretation of the "Servant Song" passages of Isaiah, of which this is one. The "Servant" in most of these songs is (to the Christian mind) a reference to Jesus—e.g. Isaiah 53 (another of the Servant Songs). It is true that this passage addresses the Servant as "Israel," but before we assume that identification throughout the chapter, we might discover how it could be ethnic Israel that will "raise up the tribes of Jacob," as well as being "a light to the Gentiles" (v.6). Is it the destiny of "Israel" to "raise up...Jacob" and to be a light to the Gentiles, or is that the task of Christ and His Body? Jesus said that He and His disciples were the light of the world. He never hinted that Israel as a nation would separately fill that role. Paul quoted this verse, and believed it applied to his own mission (Acts 13:47). That Christ is the antitype of Israel seems to be the assumption of the New Testament writers (e.g. Matt.2:15 and Hos.11:1). Isaiah's "Servant" is, initially, the nation of Israel. However, Israel's failure in this role is made up for by the ultimate "Israelite"—the Messiah. The church is simply His body and the extension of Himself by which His mission id carried-out. Thus, the Church is the Israel to whom the promises pertain (as Paul clearly declared (Gal.3:29/ 2 Cor.1:20).
3. If this passage contains a promise to "Israel" (in an ethnic sense), would it not then fall into the category of "promises to Israel" of which Paul says, "They are not all Israel who are of Israel"? It seems to me that it is just such Old Testament passages as this one to which Paul is referring in this comment, which is preceded by an affirmation that God's promises to Israel have NOT failed to come true—i.e., God's promises to Israel HAVE INDEED come true—but only to that remnant that God had in mind when He made them (Rom.9:6).
When I said on the air that I know of no passage that predicts a restoration of the Jews to their land in the end times, I was not unmindful of this passage, nor of any of the passages like it. I find that the New Testament everywhere takes such passages and applies them to the present age of the church, in which Christ is seen as the fulfillment of the promises to the believing remnant of Israel and to the believing Gentiles.
Your thesis could be right, but it is far from obvious. I have several observations:
1. You say that the diaspora of AD 70 is here referred to. Perhaps so, but what is there in the passage that gives you this information? Why would it not be the diaspora of 586 BC? If God predicted something in the 8th century BC, and the thing predicted actually happened in the 6th century BC, would we not need strong exegetical reasons to affirm that the prediction ignores the near fulfillment, and looks to a distant fulfillment not otherwise mentioned in scripture? Is it not strange that the apostles (if they believed in an eschatological restoration of Israel to their land) never made the slightest mention of such a thing—even in discussing Israel's destiny (Romans 9-11) and in their focused discussions of eschatology (e.g., Matthew 24; 1st and 2nd Thessalonians; 2 Peter 3; the Book of Revelation, etc.)?
2. You are assuming a particular interpretation of the "Servant Song" passages of Isaiah, of which this is one. The "Servant" in most of these songs is (to the Christian mind) a reference to Jesus—e.g. Isaiah 53 (another of the Servant Songs). It is true that this passage addresses the Servant as "Israel," but before we assume that identification throughout the chapter, we might discover how it could be ethnic Israel that will "raise up the tribes of Jacob," as well as being "a light to the Gentiles" (v.6). Is it the destiny of "Israel" to "raise up...Jacob" and to be a light to the Gentiles, or is that the task of Christ and His Body? Jesus said that He and His disciples were the light of the world. He never hinted that Israel as a nation would separately fill that role. Paul quoted this verse, and believed it applied to his own mission (Acts 13:47). That Christ is the antitype of Israel seems to be the assumption of the New Testament writers (e.g. Matt.2:15 and Hos.11:1). Isaiah's "Servant" is, initially, the nation of Israel. However, Israel's failure in this role is made up for by the ultimate "Israelite"—the Messiah. The church is simply His body and the extension of Himself by which His mission id carried-out. Thus, the Church is the Israel to whom the promises pertain (as Paul clearly declared (Gal.3:29/ 2 Cor.1:20).
3. If this passage contains a promise to "Israel" (in an ethnic sense), would it not then fall into the category of "promises to Israel" of which Paul says, "They are not all Israel who are of Israel"? It seems to me that it is just such Old Testament passages as this one to which Paul is referring in this comment, which is preceded by an affirmation that God's promises to Israel have NOT failed to come true—i.e., God's promises to Israel HAVE INDEED come true—but only to that remnant that God had in mind when He made them (Rom.9:6).
When I said on the air that I know of no passage that predicts a restoration of the Jews to their land in the end times, I was not unmindful of this passage, nor of any of the passages like it. I find that the New Testament everywhere takes such passages and applies them to the present age of the church, in which Christ is seen as the fulfillment of the promises to the believing remnant of Israel and to the believing Gentiles.
Re: Restoration of Israel from Isaiah 49
Steve,
Let's go slow point by point.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us (Israel), saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. (Acts 13)
While Paul's Jewish audience wanted nothing to do with the Gospel, Paul and Barnabas were among the preserved of Israel who were willing to do what God had commanded Israel. They were among the remnant believers of Israel. I think it's clear from the context (specifically the mention of the "preserved of Israel") that these Messianic Jews were the ones spared from the Roman Destruction via 70 AD, contrariwise ethnic Israel could say:
14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. (Isaiah 49)
But, God has not completely cast Israel aside (Romans 11):
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. 16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me. 17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee. (Isaiah 49)
Brian
Let's go slow point by point.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. (Isaiah 49)You say that the diaspora of AD 70 is here referred to. Perhaps so, but what is there in the passage that gives you this information?
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us (Israel), saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. (Acts 13)
While Paul's Jewish audience wanted nothing to do with the Gospel, Paul and Barnabas were among the preserved of Israel who were willing to do what God had commanded Israel. They were among the remnant believers of Israel. I think it's clear from the context (specifically the mention of the "preserved of Israel") that these Messianic Jews were the ones spared from the Roman Destruction via 70 AD, contrariwise ethnic Israel could say:
14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. (Isaiah 49)
But, God has not completely cast Israel aside (Romans 11):
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. 16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me. 17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee. (Isaiah 49)
Brian
Re: Restoration of Israel from Isaiah 49
Sorry, but that is an extraordinarily unconvincing argument. However, if you like to treat scripture in such a cavalier manner, I will leave you to it. I hope to be found among those who "tremble at His word," rather than manipulate it.
Re: Restoration of Israel from Isaiah 49
Steve,
Your response was disappointing. I'm not disappointed that you vehemently disagree with my post, but that you insinuated that I'm a manipulator of the text of Scripture. I could have easily leveled such a charge against you when we interacted over Romans 11 a couple years back, but out of respect for you and your ministry I refrained from making such accusations.
No doubt the prophets can be difficult to understand. My interpretation of Isaiah 49, even with the inclusion to hints of AD 70, is by no means a great stretch when the we look at how the NT authors (particularly Paul) interpreted the text.
I am not the best defender of Historic Premillennialism (chiliasm), but there is a pastor who has devoted much of his ministry to the ancient hope of the Christian. His name is Tim Warner, which I'm sure you are aware.
http://www.heirsofthepromise.org/
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/
Given that you've done some radio debates in the past, I asked him if he'd be interested in a radio debate with you on this topic. He said he would, after his live debate with a church of Christ minister in October/November of this year. So, perhaps late fall/early winter a radio debate with Tim could take place. I believe your audience would be very interested in such an exchange, and I believe the topic (while not a salvation issue) is very important to get a good handle on. Debates like this can clear up misunderstandings, sharpen each other, and demonstrate that while Christians may disagree on some issues, brotherly love can still be maintained.
Brian
Your response was disappointing. I'm not disappointed that you vehemently disagree with my post, but that you insinuated that I'm a manipulator of the text of Scripture. I could have easily leveled such a charge against you when we interacted over Romans 11 a couple years back, but out of respect for you and your ministry I refrained from making such accusations.
No doubt the prophets can be difficult to understand. My interpretation of Isaiah 49, even with the inclusion to hints of AD 70, is by no means a great stretch when the we look at how the NT authors (particularly Paul) interpreted the text.
I am not the best defender of Historic Premillennialism (chiliasm), but there is a pastor who has devoted much of his ministry to the ancient hope of the Christian. His name is Tim Warner, which I'm sure you are aware.
http://www.heirsofthepromise.org/
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/
Given that you've done some radio debates in the past, I asked him if he'd be interested in a radio debate with you on this topic. He said he would, after his live debate with a church of Christ minister in October/November of this year. So, perhaps late fall/early winter a radio debate with Tim could take place. I believe your audience would be very interested in such an exchange, and I believe the topic (while not a salvation issue) is very important to get a good handle on. Debates like this can clear up misunderstandings, sharpen each other, and demonstrate that while Christians may disagree on some issues, brotherly love can still be maintained.
Brian
Re: Restoration of Israel from Isaiah 49
I agree and i think there are other places that allude to this like Acts 1 when the disciples ask about Israel's restoration Jesus actually affirms it by saying "it's not for you to know the time", meaning there is such a time. Or Matt 23.39 "For i tell you , you will not see me again UNTIL you say "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."
There are other verses like Acts 3 "restore everything as he foretold through his holy prophets."
Many of the spiritual fulfillments are in the Israel of God but there are promises to Jacob which are meant for physical Israel IMO.
There are so many promises to physical Israel it's hard to pick where to start and if you claim every specific promise to Jacob is really fulfilled in Christ then how can you know every promise to believers in Christ are really for them, maybe they are meant for muslims.
God does'nt do it for Israel's sake "but for the sake of my holy name" Eze 36.22. "For i will take you out of the nations , i will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land" Eze 36.24.
God does it for his own names sake and i think he is doing it now. One way you can know is from the extraordinary hatred toward Israel , well beyond human explanation but not a biblical explanation.
There are other verses like Acts 3 "restore everything as he foretold through his holy prophets."
Many of the spiritual fulfillments are in the Israel of God but there are promises to Jacob which are meant for physical Israel IMO.
There are so many promises to physical Israel it's hard to pick where to start and if you claim every specific promise to Jacob is really fulfilled in Christ then how can you know every promise to believers in Christ are really for them, maybe they are meant for muslims.
God does'nt do it for Israel's sake "but for the sake of my holy name" Eze 36.22. "For i will take you out of the nations , i will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land" Eze 36.24.
God does it for his own names sake and i think he is doing it now. One way you can know is from the extraordinary hatred toward Israel , well beyond human explanation but not a biblical explanation.
Re: Restoration of Israel from Isaiah 49
Hi Brian,
I am sorry for the insinuation. It is not personally about you, but about the way people insert their ideas into texts without exegetical warrant in order to make them fit a doctrinal point of view. I have heard of Tim Warner before (doesn't he also debate Calvinists?). I would be glad to have such a debate with him in the future.
Also, I agree with having the New Testament writers interpret the Old Testament for us. That is the very authority to which I am appealing in my interpretation.
I am sorry for the insinuation. It is not personally about you, but about the way people insert their ideas into texts without exegetical warrant in order to make them fit a doctrinal point of view. I have heard of Tim Warner before (doesn't he also debate Calvinists?). I would be glad to have such a debate with him in the future.
Also, I agree with having the New Testament writers interpret the Old Testament for us. That is the very authority to which I am appealing in my interpretation.
Re: Restoration of Israel from Isaiah 49
Also, I agree with having the New Testament writers interpret the Old Testament for us. That is the very authority to which I am appealing in my interpretation
The question is if they interpret every single promise to Israel. It would be edifying to hear you discuss/debate Michael Brown about this.
The question is if they interpret every single promise to Israel. It would be edifying to hear you discuss/debate Michael Brown about this.
Re: Restoration of Israel from Isaiah 49
Steve,
Up to this point, Tim has only debated in written form, but is looking to interact more in a live format. His only significant debate against a Calvinist is his written critique of James White's treatment of John 6. Maybe December would work for a radio debate. I will ask Tim to see what he thinks.
Thanks.
Brian
Up to this point, Tim has only debated in written form, but is looking to interact more in a live format. His only significant debate against a Calvinist is his written critique of James White's treatment of John 6. Maybe December would work for a radio debate. I will ask Tim to see what he thinks.
Thanks.
Brian