Baptism and Mark 16

[jriccitelli]

Correct, none of the Bible is understood in a vacuum otherwise it would be hard to understand these statements;

So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. (John 6:53)

"… and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:26)

"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20)

"Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"17 And He said to him, "… if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:16)

[jriccitelli]

(I know many of us do believe baptism does not save, but this how I would 'show' that there is no misinformation or anything hard to understand about Mark 16. And why I do not see any problem with the passage)

The disciples had been listening to Jesus for awhile now, so I 'also' have to keep all teachings within the context of Jesus' other teachings on works of the flesh, rituals, salvation, and what really matters to God;

"Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?... For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.20 These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man"(Matt 15:2-20)

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.26 You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness" (Matt 23:25-27)

'How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the - of the Pharisees and Sadducees."12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Matt 16:11) (Leaven is what? Ans. Legalism)

Baptism is a 'sign' of the new Covenant, just as circumcision was the 'sign' of the Old Covenant. I do not have to list all the verse where God explains that it is not the outward sign that God wants (Deuteronomy 10:16…etc, etc), but the inward reality that God wants.
It is the 'circumcision of the heart' that circumcision 'represents'. The 'real' circumcision and baptism was the one Jesus Himself endured for us in our place on the Cross, the cutting off and death of His flesh. If you misunderstand the whole point of the teaching on circumcision you will miss the whole point of Baptism, it is only an outward sign we do (It is interesting to note that the thief on the cross was 'with' Jesus while Jesus underwent His Baptism). Baptism doesn't 'do' anything other than make a statement of our faith. As often said; a wedding ring doesn't 'make a person married.

'They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.40 But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.41 You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. (John 8:40-42)

(Circumcision, being Jewish, does not save, and so 'neither' Circumcision or Baptism is the real seal of salvation; it is the Holy Spirit that seals us (unless you are born again), something only God can do.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.25 He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal" (John 12:24-25)

(Jesus speaks of 'many' things associated with eternal life, but the overwhelming element is 'Belief', so knowing this the disciples would understand that other things do not save, but that many things accompany salvation. And is not the overwhelming central point of salvation in Jesus' teaching; 'God is the One who saves, and it is the works of God that save')
But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well. (Matt 9:20)

(Jesus heals and preaches about eternal life a hundred times without mentioning 'baptism' so I would think the disciples too understood that baptism was just an outward sign)
Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water." (John 7:37)

(I think the real Baptism comes from God, from within)

[Bud]

Hi jriccitelli, I agree with your last post but I would add: though the inward baptism is the real baptism there is a commandment to baptize and many examples of new believers being subsequently baptized, therefore new believers (or not so new believers who haven't found a worthy baptizor, or haven't had opportunity) should be baptized soon. Preferably into a body of believers.
God bless you and yours,

[Paidion]

Didn't Irenaous quote part of this section around 177AD, Paidion?

A good point, Steve! I think you may be referring to the following:

Irenaeus Also towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: "So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sits on the right hand of God."

Mark 16:19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

However, what I wrote is nevertheless true:

For Mark 16:9-20 is not found in any manuscript prior to the 6th century (I meant any manuscript of the New Testament).
Most scholars believe that these verses were not composed by Mark, but were added much later.

So there is an apparent contradiction. Thus it seems that one of the following conditions applies. In your opinion, which one?

1. Irenaeus didn't write those words. Some copyist inserted them — at least the part in which it is said to be written near the end of Mark's gospel.

2. Mark 16:9-20 did occur in manuscripts prior to the 6th century. It's just that no one today is in possession of any of these manuscripts.

Or are there other possibilities to explain the apparent contradiction?

[Paidion]

Hi jriccitelli, I agree with your last post but I would add: though the inward baptism is the real baptism there is a commandment to baptize and many examples of new believers being subsequently baptized, therefore new believers (or not so new believers who haven't found a worthy baptizor, or haven't had opportunity) should be baptized soon.

Actually, Bud, I don't think either "the inward baptism" or "the outward baptism" is in itself "the real baptism." If a regeneration takes place, "You can't have one without the other." When one is baptised, there is something going on within the mind and heart which corresponds to what is going on outwardly.

Outwardly, the baptizee is simply being immersed in water, and then brought back up again. If a true baptism is taking place, then within him, he is dying to the old self and that old self is being buried — gone for good. This is depicted by the person being buried in water. His coming up out of the water symbolizes his rising up again to a new life in Christ Jesus — a kind of spiritual resurrection. But the immersion of the baptized person and his emerging from the water is not merely symbolism. It occurs simultaneously with the death to the old person and the resurrection of the new person that goes on within the baptizee. If this doesn't happen within him, then he is just going through a ceremony and getting wet. On the other hand, if he doesn't get baptized, he may never have had a true conversion — only a good feeling — unless there is a special reason why he could NOT be baptized. For if he refuses to be baptized, he has not had a true conversion, although possibly God may overlook his refusal if it is based on a sincere belief that baptism is unnecessary. (I am not at all certain about the latter).

[steve7150]

Irenaeus Also towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says: "So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sits on the right hand of God."

Mark 16:19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

However, what I wrote is nevertheless true:


For Mark 16:9-20 is not found in any manuscript prior to the 6th century (I meant any manuscript of the New Testament).
Most scholars believe that these verses were not composed by Mark, but were added much later.

So there is an apparent contradiction. Thus it seems that one of the following conditions applies. In your opinion, which one?

1. Irenaeus didn't write those words. Some copyist inserted them — at least the part in which it is said to be written near the end of Mark's gospel.

2. Mark 16:9-20 did occur in manuscripts prior to the 6th century. It's just that no one today is in possession of any of these manuscripts.





Paidion,
I think it's far fetched that a copyist made up or inserted this in Irenaous's letter so if it's legit then it's likely the ending is legit and perhaps was on a separate page that was misplaced or accidently destroyed.

[Bud]

Thank you Paidion for your reply, You wrote," If a true baptism is taking place, then within him, he is dying to the old self and that old self is being buried — gone for good." This happened to me Paidion two months before I was baptized when I received the testimony of a converted criminal who was in jail.
That was 14yrs ago, and I'm still in Christ and believe I have been since the moment I had faith to follow Jesus through receiving one of His humble children.

Matt.18:5, And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth Me.

I do not think baptism is merely symbolic. I think it is symbolic and more.

What do you think? Was I not saved before baptism?

God bless you and yours,

[Paidion]

Paidion,
I think it's far fetched that a copyist made up or inserted this in Irenaous's letter so if it's legit then it's likely the ending is legit and perhaps was on a separate page that was misplaced or accidently destroyed.

Not so far fetched, Homer. Consider what is assumed to be the writings of Ignatius who was born in 30 A.D. and lived until 107 A.D. There are 15 letters that bear his name, and it is generally agreed that eight of them are spurious. They include many ideas that can only belong to a later age. Those which are accepted by some as genuine make an elder/overseer distinction which as entirely absent in the apostolic writings. (There is also a longer and shorter recension of each of the "genuine" letters). According to the author of these letters, there was also only one overseer in each church. The "genuine" letters all advocate that the people in each church regard the overseer (later called "bishop") as they would Jesus Christ, and submit to him totally. This concept was simply not there in the primitive church.

A significant number of people who have studied these writings have concluded all of them are spurious or have been tampered with in a major way, and that there are no genuine letters of Ignatius presently in existence.

[Paidion]

What do you think? Was I not saved before baptism?

I am not dogmatic about this issue, but I will, according to your request, tell you what I think. I think that God often works with people long before they "sign the contract", so to speak, which commits them to a life time of discipleship. I don't doubt that you had been communicating with God long before you took that important step, and that you experienced His presence in your heart and life. But just as one may attend club meetings and even participate in activities before becoming a member, so one may participate in Christ with members of His body before taking that initiation into discipleship. In the Jewish religion, that step is "Bar Mitzvah" for every Jewish boy at age 13. In Christ, it is a person's baptism.

I am not saying that you would have gone to hell forever, if you had died prior to your baptism, and have gone to heaven forever, if you had died subsequent to it. I'ts not as cut and dried as that. Jesus said, "Everyone will be salted with fire." The purifying fires of God may be necessary for all people, even baptized disciples. I don't know how God is going to deal with people in the next life who have not become overcomers, but I am sure all must be purified in order to be with Him forever in paradise, or heaven, or here on earth, or wherever God places them.

I do not believe that people with sinful tendencies are yet ready for the afterlife. God knows how to purify so that they will repent and become ready — both in this life and the next. I do not believe that the purpose of Christ's death was to "take on the punishment which we all deserve" so that we can go to heaven "scott free". Rather the purpose was to enable us by the grace of God to overcome wrongdoing and live righteously.

[SamIam]

jriccitelli,

Baptism is a 'sign' of the new Covenant, just as circumcision was the 'sign' of the Old Covenant.

I am not aware of the passage that explicitly states this. It must be an inference, but I am not aware what passages it is inferred from. This statement would have to be the conclusion drawn from some other teaching, consequently it does not seem right to use this as a starting point and the lens through which the passages on baptism are to be understood. I am not aware of any passage that teaches baptism to be a "sign" of anything. It is commonly thought to be a symbolic act, but where is the passage that teaches that it is a symbolic act?

Interestingly, a passage that teaches our circumcision in Christ is in the same sentence that teaches we are buried and raised with Christ in baptism.

In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. Colosians 2:11,12 NRSV