Dispensational Bible Study (I went to)

[_Rick_C]

Thanks for your replies, folks,

Hang in there Rick! I share your frustration! I'm still looking for a place to go (local church) that I can feel comfortable taking my children to.

First thing is, my "frustration" over dispensationalism is possibly as old as you are, Sean! I became "post-trib" at an A/G Bible college in about 1978. Within weeks I became amillennial also. (These things, after taking a course in Hermeneutics, "how to interpret the Bible," at the same college. They taught me how to do it and I learned the denomination wasn't doing it right)!

I know a church you'd like your kids to be in. An elderly couple (in their 70s) I've known since the charismatic movement of the 70s got kicked out of the Nazarene denomination for becoming charismatic. Since then they've became amillennial also. This couple are, somehow, pastoring in a Wesleyan Church and there's not a problem with their exercising gifts of the Spirit there (vocal gifts like tongues, interpretation of, and prophecy)! The wife teaches the kids about Jesus....

They live in my town but pastor in a town 30 miles away: A tad too far to drive for my old beat up truck...(that needs some work).

A few years ago I was introduced to Steve Gregg's teaching by an on-line friend of mine....That would be the beginning of the end of my dispensationalist leanings. I can't believe the huge monkey that was on my back concerning that teaching and what a relief to have it removed. Most folks, and I would include myself at one time, aren't very open to listening to anything that is amil or preterist. We were taught that it is heretical so stay away from it. Sound bites from other end times teachers were all I could say about those beliefs so I never really checked them out. To this day I cringe when listening to anything having to do with Hal Lindsey, LaHaye, etc. Your Bible Study on Revelation must be difficult with that mindset already in place of those teaching and at the study.

I first heard Steve on Hank Hanegraaaff in 2004. After finding his site and listening to his lectures, I learned the process that he went through from "converting" to amillennialism was about the same as mine. It was 2 Thes 1:6-10 that seemed to "get" us. Those verses led to my becoming "post-trib" and a study of Revelation (personal, not in a class) brought me to the "amill" view.

I've been "cringing" over dispensationalsim since I walked out of Bible college. It's not something you get over, is it? Especially since the likes Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHaye, and John Hagee are being broadcasted daily into the Middle East (in their languages)!!!

I posted an article from Pat Robertson's site, some time ago here, about some Baptists who are being "persecuted" in Bethlehem. Why were they being persecuted? For being Christians in part. The main reason was they were teaching the local Arabs are living on "God's Property."

Dispensationalists don't understand the implications of what they are saying! And John Hagee is one of the most dangerous men on earth! (Senator McCain has accepted his endorsement)....

Once again, this Bible study has been something I'm "trying out." I stayed when I learned it was on Revelation. So it's not a matter of my being forced into it (it's not in "my" church). One reason I stayed was to see what new things the dispensationalists have come up with. So far, it's President Bush (now) as the possible AntiChrist and Russia and Iran (now) are possibly up to something that will "lead to Armageddon."

<sigh>

Know that you are not alone. This is turning into a great "venting" thread.

It is amazing what a hold dispensational teaching has on people, even when they see the falsehood of a pre-trib rapture, they seem to usually cling to the rest of the teaching that birthed it.

If it wasn't for the internet...(I'm in a minority where I live)...the web gives me a place to fellowship with folks I agree with. Well, at least on Eschatology, anyway....

I didn't intend for this to become a "venting" thread. However, I did vent about my frustrations on my local eschatology. (I knew what I'd be getting myself into by staying, and then going back, to the Bible study). As you say, some people might become "post-trib" yet remain dispensational (like the person I debated by email who wrote the letter to the editor. Btw, I should mention this person was "open" to amillennialism, which was one reason I invited them to join FBFF).

It is possible to fellowship with people you disagree with; the trick is to find and focus on areas of agreement. Later, when a relationship has developed, you can more easily discuss areas of difference. For Rick to attend a Bible study on one of the books guaranteed to lead to disagreement is not going to be conducive to creating that kind of relationship because you are going to start off on the wrong foot, no matter what.

From my point of view, I knew in advance of the possibility of my getting off on the wrong foot with these guys. I've said I have a different view from them and explained it has been for a long time. But I haven't "pushed" any of my ideas onto them. To my knowledge none of them are really "upset" with my being there. But one guy, who I talked with at a Christian bookstore once; I know he's a "hardliner" on founding of the nation of Israel being a fulfillment of OT prophecies. (At the store we decided to drop it. Well, I did)....

I could, potentially, keep going to the study. I'd like to build relationships with these guys. Actually, a couple of them seemed like they wanted to ask me stuff (and they might be holding back also). At any rate, I can see how this could become problematic for the church. That is, if some dude comes in and starts teaching stuff contrary to what they believe...and maybe a few fellas get together outside of the church to study these things.

(I've been considering holding a Bible study in my apartment, except I have too much stuff in here, lol. I "collect" things people give away that I don't need and have no room for! Isn't Spring House Cleaning the next thing to be fulfilled in prophecy?),

When a pastor is manipulating his flock or silences well-meaning, biblically-sound opposition, I think it's time to find another pastor in another place. I'm also in that in between spot where I don't know where I fit, but it's not at the church I used to attend, which, by the way, taught that 10% off the top, even if your bills can't be paid philosophy as well, and, really, not much else.

The pastor of this church (who isn't formally 'leading' the study) hasn't "silenced" me, with the possible exception of, "The Two Witnesses couldn't be the Church because we wont be here." Well, he let me know this is what he believes. I didn't contest that, saying, "'Could be...could be" (and I kind of chuckled in a "nice" way of "Okay, we may not agree").

Again, the decisions we make about "Which church is for me?" has the criteria we feel are important. I used to go to the local Church of God (Anderson, Indiana) for the sole reason they are amillennial (though I much prefer a charismatic church: "criteria" again). And while I do believe in speaking in tongues, I no longer accept the Pentecostal position that they are the "initial physical evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit." (Besides, all Pentecostal churches are pre-trib/premill)....

In all of this (thanks so much folks) I'm trusting God to lead and am sure I need to seek Him for guidance and inspiration (who knows? I might get led to "speak-up")? I haven't had a really bad irritable feeling before I went (this past week, when I knew what the topic was). Yet I knew it could happen at any moment. On the other hand, I did have an upset stomach last week ... 'wonder what that was about?
Hmmmmm.....

At any rate, I don't know what will happen regarding this Bible study. (I need this part-time job really bad! and if I get it I won't be able to go anyway). Thanks,

[Guest]

P.S. I should also mention that, at the first time I went to this study, I specifically said I didn't want to debate (or to start one). The pastor has acknowledged that I have "other views" more than once. However, I haven't really gone into them much, other than the illustration of 'the woolly lamb' (above) and saying I'm amillennial now.

Also, I went to this Bible study as it is the only one in my area that I know of to where it's a discussion. Other churches have "Bible studies" but they are the pastor teaching...you just listen, then go home, lol.

P.S.S. What kind of "hurts" is that I could teach these brothers not only about dispensationalism...but of the other views too.

I still feel a call to ministry: (though I bombed out of a dispensationalist Bible college, 11 hours short of a B.A. in Bible & Theology).

Maybe I'm "called" to teach truth...whenever I can?
The churches in my area are decisively modernist or postmodernist, which is another (though related) topic. By this I mean to to say that, they are either closed-minded on prophecy...or "pan-millennial" (the PoMo notion that prophecy doesn't really matter), blah-blah-blah....
Anyways, thanks!

Here's the thing, Rick, as I see it. It is a form of fellowship as long as the nicy nice takes place but if one person or the other is there to "do the teaching" and "I'll show you what for" then it becomes something far different from fellowship and instead is about what I know and you don't know. This is not me picking on you but is me saying I have been there and done that. Put yourself in the pastors shoes and pretend also that you are the dispie sitting in the room and some "jerk" comes along and stirs the pot. Get what I'm saying? (you're not a jerk, you're my friend but I am making an illustration from my experience)

So am I saying that you should stay away and have no fellowship at all? No. I am saying pick uyour fights so that it won't disrupt fellowship. Sure, you may win over one or two to your view but I can bet that most there are for fellowship and not for learning. Sad but true. It should go hand in hand but it doesn't.

So here is the answer: Be at peace with everyone as far as it depends upon you. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Enjoy the time of being with other men and ignore the subject if it is fellowship you are looking for. Be a teacher in season and be all things to all people as the Lord gives you grace.

[_Rick_C]

Hello Allyn,

I just tried to see when the local Church of God (Anderson, Indiana) has church tonite but their website is down...(and I think it's already started & don't wanna call).

You wrote:

Here's the thing, Rick, as I see it. It is a form of fellowship as long as the nicy nice takes place but if one person or the other is there to "do the teaching" and "I'll show you what for" then it becomes something far different from fellowship and instead is about what I know and you don't know. This is not me picking on you but is me saying I have been there and done that. Put yourself in the pastors shoes and pretend also that you are the dispie sitting in the room and some "jerk" comes along and stirs the pot. Get what I'm saying? (you're not a jerk, you're my friend but I am making an illustration from my experience)

"Putting myself in a pastor's shoes" was what I did in about 1979 (while studying for the ministry). I went to the A/G's top theologian, who was one of my professors, to talk about my being amillennial: (You can "be" amill and pastor or be licensed with the A/G. However, in a few sessions with this theologian, I learned you cannot say anything contrary to dispensationalism). After learning this, I knew then and there I couldn't "be" in the A/G even as a member....

I've put myself in this (local) pastor's shoes also. From what I've said so far, I can't really say I've "stirred the pot." At the same time, I've expressed that I no longer believe as they do. Nothing in the nature of "contrariness" has been said back to me. But the thing about "we won't be here" (the Church, as the pastor said)...well, maybe you have a point. He wasn't mean-spirited in saying this, just matter-of-fact, like....

So am I saying that you should stay away and have no fellowship at all? No. I am saying pick uyour fights so that it won't disrupt fellowship. Sure, you may win over one or two to your view but I can bet that most there are for fellowship and not for learning. Sad but true. It should go hand in hand but it doesn't.

I do think some of the guys might "be there" just because it's on the schedule (they don't say anything). Yet, they may not be talking because they're asking the kinds of stuff I did...(when I was a dispensationalist)...but are afraid to speak-up (???)!

I haven't had thoughts about trying to win anyone over: To win anyone over, one's views would have to be presented first! Of course, I'd like it if they saw things non-dispensationally. You can tell that, outside of "pre-mid-or post trib"---these men probably know of no other views than these: (Default dispensationalism: When the rapture will be, optional, yet they all seem to be pre-trib...unless some may be holding back?)....

My first time there (it's only two weeks now) I said I believed in a general resurrection and that "it is compatible with post-trib" (though I didn't say I was post-trib, as I'm 99% convinced that the "great tribulation" occurred in 70AD)! This isn't to say there may not be another time of ("great") tribulation, after the devil gets released (Rev 20:3b). I've tried to imagine what explaining "this paragraph" to these men would be like. Um, better not go there: Not now (or any time soon)!!!

My overall "tone," so to speak, has been that there are other views around and, really, this is all I've emphasized. Without being very controversial, what I've been saying is something like how Steve does it: "There are other views that honest Christians have held" (if you see what I'm saying).

Given the fact that, as it appears, these guys only know of "pre-mid or post"...I'm probably cut-off at that point. In other words, I highly doubt I'll ever be able to go into things like partial-preterism (a very difficult topic, especially if one isn't familiar with it at all)....

So here is the answer: Be at peace with everyone as far as it depends upon you. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Enjoy the time of being with other men and ignore the subject if it is fellowship you are looking for. Be a teacher in season and be all things to all people as the Lord gives you grace.

Till or if I get this part-time job, I'll probably go back to the study. And thanks, Allyn! As I said before...I'm going to this study simply because it is a discussion. (If it were on another topic, I'd still go). Outside of a Christian couple who are my neighbors---and we get together to talk theology (I've discussed all this this stuff with them too)---and a couple people at work; I don't talk theology & Bible much outside of on the web (where I do it a lot, here & elsewhere).

But with your last paragraph, I think I should get with the pastor and/or say something to the guys. That is, by way of a more basic explanation of what has happened in my life ...regarding the very complicated topic of prophecy! I feel like I should go back at least once (and I'm hoping to get this job, which will start on the 15th if I do...if anyone feels led, please pray I'll get it, if it's God's will).

I might just give "my testimony" of how, at one time, I vowed to not (even) darken a door of a dispensational church...and how the Lord has changed my heart about that...(I don't know what I may say)....

Overall, I think things will work out as they're supposed to.
That is, I trust God to lead and am intent to follow.

Thanks for all this feedback, peeps!

[Guest]

So here is the answer: Be at peace with everyone as far as it depends upon you. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Enjoy the time of being with other men and ignore the subject if it is fellowship you are looking for. Be a teacher in season and be all things to all people as the Lord gives you grace.

I have to say I share your sentiments, as well. I have no intention of ranting because I love my church and my church fellowship, but it's very frustrating not having people who think the way I do (and I don't mean substance, but instead approach to thinking). Most of our fellowship have strong convictions for Christ, and some have strong doctrinal leanings. However, there are virtually none who feel any need or desire to discuss them or enrich their own understanding. I've learned to deal with that. As Allyn says, when things come up and I'm asked (or an opportunity arises) I give my views and "leave them at that" hoping they work on people later as they reflect (if they are the reflective sort). Unfortunately, 90+% of the time, I just have to bite my lip and keep silent. When I find someone has questions in an area, I might send them some audio snippets or articles or an email or such and if they want to discuss further, they do -- most of the time, they send a quick "thank you" and it's clear they don't want to hear any more.

I think that boils down to what Allyn says -- be still and trust God -- go with he Spirit but stay temperate and loving, and be willing that some peple just want to be "wrong" (or at least simplistic) about some things (even most things).

It helps me to realize it's not just "doctrine" -- I abhor small-talk of any variety and get just as frustrated when people want to talk about sports or what-not. People equally aren't interested in excellence or art or music or beauty or literature or anything else beyond the mundane or American Idol or what-not. I'm just wired differently than most (as most around here seem to be), and I'm learning to be ok with that.

[_Rick_C]

I made a post yesterday...and decided to delete it.
Here's why.

1. I've mostly been complaining.
2. I haven't really taken all of Steve's advice (haven't "done" it).

What Steve advised ("if he were me going to this study" as I had asked).
1. He wouldn't say anything if he had no plans to continue going. (I've kept going for something to do).
2. Talk to the leader (facilitator) or pastor to see if they are interested in learning other views.
3. To do this privately....
4. And in order to be polite and to not usurp authority. (This week the pastor did do the teaching, stopping the "reader" at certain points. Pastor's teaching was "strictly dispensationalist" and I didn't contest anything he said).
5. Steve suggested that I could give other resources if the leader approved. That is, if the leader okays it. (The real leader, I've learned, is the pastor, though it's an open discussion).

This week, (after asking permission), I commented on the Two Witnesses in terms of the two lampstands (menorah) and the two olive trees (Re 11:4). I gave some OT references and what the Jews have believed these symbolize: The menorah, a symbol of the burning bush Moses saw (Ex. 2), and, the olive trees as supplying the oil for them (briefly referencing how oil is for "anointing" also).

I then realized that, to these guys, this stuff wouldn't really matter (and no one commented, we "read on"). Why? They believe the Two Witnesses are future and two [literal] men..."who everyone will see on television," said the pastor. So what Revelation would have meant to the original readers (or hearers---the way I interpret this book and the Bible---is inconsequential to these men).....

I made one other comment (about the Temple) to which the pastor said, "Wait" (and then led the discussion in a dispensationalist direction). I wasn't thinking....

So, in any event, I'm going to follow Steve's advice. That is, before I give more "alternative views" I'm going to just listen. I can tell that the pastor probably doesn't want non-dispensationalist views presented and should talk to him privately before I speak. (I should mention that I went to the study early this week to try to find him to talk. He was there but busy).

Lastly, someone brought and asked permission to read the letter to the editor (I posted above). I said what I did above also (about predicting the Second Coming). The pastor agreed that we shouldn't do that! and also mentioned that some Christians think the pope (or Catholic church) is written about in Revelation, though he didn't say he did.

Other things were discussed that were "good" sub-topics wise. I'm praying about going back to the study and may call the pastor to ask if I can speak with him privately some time. (The study isn't very "in-depth" and I'm not especially interested in "brief" studies, so to speak). I'll take Steve's advice as far as "behaving myself" goes....
(will think-twice before I talk)!

Steve's right: I do need to get with the pastor; if for nothing else, to clear things up about where I'm coming from to him! (fellowship).
Thanks, Steve and folks

[_Rick_C]

P.S. I want to apologize to Steve because I "rambled-on" so much on the radio! Sorry about that, Steve, (and listeners too)!

Your advice (Steve) was excellent!
I'm going to contact the pastor to clear up the "where I'm coming from" to him...and to do it in terms of "speaking the truth in love."

(I've called him twice before the study...(and got his answering service)...to which I said, "I'll see you there").

At any rate, I need to follow up on (DO) what Steve advised!
And will report back here on what happens, how our talk goes....

Thanks so much!

[Guest]

Rather than "correct" the views in this particular study, have you considered asking the pastor whether you might facilitate a parallel study for those interested to provide balance and present one of the other views of Revelation people may not have considered ?

You could even go through Steve's tape series and listen one week, discuss it the next, and continue alternating or something. Or, provide CDs for listening alone and come up with an outline of a few discussion points to go through together each week...

I find I never really learn a subject unless I'm explaining it to others and resolving their objections.

Just a thought.

[_Rick_C]

Hello Darin, thanks for your reply.

You wrote:

Rather than "correct" the views in this particular study, have you considered asking the pastor whether you might facilitate a parallel study for those interested to provide balance and present one of the other views of Revelation people may not have considered ?

First, my getting with the pastor (as Steve so wisely advised) is imperative!

Steve (on the radio) mentioned that, to these men, I'm like a "Who are you?" (to just come in here and start teaching stuff)? I haven't "corrected" anything that has been said during the studies. I have said, "Some see (this or that) as ____." But I haven't been controversial, intentionally.

Since I wasn't there for the first (6) chapters, I don't know if they ever discussed the alternate views or different schools of Revelation interpretation. None of them have been discussed so far...so I'm assuming they haven't. I don't think the guys know of the "historicist" view, for example. I mentioned it briefly once, but from the response (none), I assume they don't know.

The pastor asked me what Dispensationalism was. I don't know if he actually didn't know himself (?) ... or if he was just trying to help get me in on the discussion (?).

You probably know, Darin, that many if not most Dispensationalists don't know what it is! In other words, to them there's only one view: It! They are dispensational but don't know! (You mean there are other views?)....

You could even go through Steve's tape series and listen one week, discuss it the next, and continue alternating or something. Or, provide CDs for listening alone and come up with an outline of a few discussion points to go through together each week...

The only alternate viewpoints that have been mentioned is: pre-mid- or post-tribulational rapture.

Now, my neighbor, his wife, and I have listened to Steve's Rev 20 lectures and discussed them. But given the level of eschatological knowledge these folks (at the church) seem to have; I don't know how "ready" they would be for partial-preterism, for example.

Steve mentioned that it took him some time to get beyond what he had been taught (dispensationalism). I'm trying to imagine what it might be like to suggest to these men that "the" great tribulation may have already happened in 70AD....

Yet, as you suggest, and if I were to teach a class on Bible Prophecy; a general overview of the different schools of interpretation would be the way I would go (essentially just-like Steve does).

An Introductory Class on Bible Prophecy would be where to start, imo. (That is, before "tackling" Revelation, so to speak), imo.

At this point, it appears that the only other alternate views these men have are on when the rapture will be. (Again, try to imagine my saying something like, "THE great tribulation may have already occurred or begun")!

At this time, I'm not very close to "teaching" much of anything in this church: I'm not a member (Methodists have membership) nor even a (very frequent) visitor of the church.

I need to get with the pastor.
If I were to keep going to the study and to 'regular' services, at some point in the future I could potentially be in a position to teach (or to at least be seen as someone who's opinions are legitimate as in, "We know Rick"). I doubt that a non-member could teach a class; I'm almost positive this wouldn't be acceptable in a United Methodist Church.

I find I never really learn a subject unless I'm explaining it to others and resolving their objections.

"Compare & Contrast," I understand....
This is how we learn lots of stuff. We compare what we were taught, e.g., to what others think or have thought. In my case and Steve's...this was how we "came out" of dispensationalism: We had no other choice!

I'm debating about calling Steve today...(or soon)...to ask about this. Steve often says he isn't trying to convince people, in terms of his wanting to prove "I'm right." I've taken this to mean it's not a matter of personal ego. At the same time, we all (Steve included, I'm sure he would say) want to have the right views presented and argued for. What we each think is right---we want it to be known....

Due to my tendency to "ramble" I'm working on making a question for Steve about this, lol. (JUST ASK THE QUESTION, RICK)!

So, at this time anyway, listening to Steve's lectures or my "teaching" alternate views in this church, won't happen. After I get to know some of the guys (if I keep going) I could possibly study with them, separate from "church." However, with all things considered; this could cause problems....

Thanks, Darin
(I have 9 minutes to formulate A question),