Alcohol & Welfare Programs: Topics on today's show

[jesusrules777]

Steve, in terms of your last post, it feels like you have been triggered? It is interesting that everything you directed toward me is exactly the way I have felt about you for many years. It seems that you understand YOUR issues which you attempt to project on anyone who disagrees with you, but for those of us with wisdom, those tactics don't work.

In terms of your accusations regarding "stopping a particular scripture," while that may be one of your tactics, I didn't even think of that until you mentioned it. I copied and pasted those scriptures from research I'm doing with regard to the poor and needy. I made no attempts to prove any point, but rather get to the Truth.

Why do you feel so threatened by anyone who knows more about an area than yourself? Why aren't you able to lovingly disagree and actually learn without threatening to eliminate them from this website? You may be able to delete the people the Lord attempts to use in your life, but you can't delete God. I'm saddened that your insecurities cause you to delete anything on here which shows your areas of weakness.

Below are some of my responses to your first posting which I will continue at a later date.

“We are discussing the proper stewardship considerations for those who are in fact desiring to give (a different category from that which you are discussing).”

Doesn’t the word “discussion” indicate two or more people voicing their opinions in whatever style or manner they choose? If this is the case, I’m not sure why I’m being told what we are discussing? We can’t put God in a box, nor can we put discussions in a box, especially if we are going to allow the Holy Spirit to communicate through us.

“We are not discussing the sinful greed of evil hearts here—unless you are saying that being a discriminating steward is the same thing as having an evil heart. “

Again, you feel the need to tell me what WE are not discussing? Shouldn’t I enjoy the freedom to “discuss” in the manner I choose? Your opinion of what we are or are not discussing is different from mine, but I wouldn’t dare to tell you what WE are discussing as you are participating in this discussion. If you are not able to discern the connections between seeing the sinful behavior in the poor while ignoring the sins of our own hearts, I don’t think the answer is to tell me what we are discussing, but to pray for more discernment.

“There was a steward castigated by his master for "wasting" his master's goods (Luke 16:1)”

When I read Luke 16:1, I see a story about a rich man hiring a manager that was rumored to be dishonest. I have no idea how you can possibly interpret this scripture to be about only giving to poor people whom we deem to be worthy of our help? There are numerous scriptures about giving to the poor and I can’t find even one which tells me to judge their behavior first and then only give to the ones I decide are deserving of my help?

“Some of us would not wish to thus displease our Master by the squandering of the little with which He has entrusted us.”

Are you equating giving to certain poor people with “squandering?” Where is that in the Bible? I can only find scripture after scripture which tells me to give to the poor, not discriminate against the poor who are behaving in ways my self- righteousness may judge them for. I can’t find any scripture which tells me that giving to the “wrong” poor person is foolish or wasteful.

“People's behavior is all that we have to go on with reference to the wisdom, or lack thereof, of our becoming their sponsors”

So in your opinion, just how perfect does a poor person’s behavior have to be for them to be worthy of help? Are you saying that it wouldn’t be wise to help an obese poor person even if they were a believer because they are obviously abusing food? In your opinion, would a smoker who is a believer in need be worthy of help, or would their addiction be a reason to refuse them?

“Since God will use people's works (and nothing else, as far as the scriptures tell us) as the basis of judging them, He must think that works are a pretty reliable indicator of what is in the heart.”

Actually, Matt. 15:18,19 and Mark 7:20-22 say that it is what comes out of the heart that makes a person “unclean”, not their behavior. So that being the case, how can you decide which poor people are clean and which are unclean based upon their actions? Would you support a poor person who was gay, but hiding it? How about a poor person who was self righteous which the Lord says is “as filthy rags?” Which sins would you decide deemed a poor person unworthy? Drinking alcohol? If that is your qualification, your mom wouldn't qualify unless you apply the Scripture about taking care of your family.

“It may be a great question (if we are, in fact, hoarding and calling this "stewardship")...but it is not a question relevant to the points originally raised”

Even if you are not able to connect the heart issue of greed causing a believer to lie to himself, twist scripture and then call it stewardship, the question is still relevant. Removing the plank from our own eye, prior to examining the speck in a poor person’s is completely relevant to the topic WE are discussing.

“The distribution of Christian funds helped those in the Christian community.”

What about the scripture which says, “they worship me with their lips but their hearts are far from me?”
Would you agree that being part of the Christian community does not determine the condition of a person’s heart? Scripture does not say that the poor within this community were scrutinized for “sinful living” within the community such as gluttony, greed, pride, arrogance, etc. It doesn’t say that some of those in need were not allowed provision because they had issues with abusing the food which could have been provided to them.

“If you would read the scriptures that I provided before responding, you would find that the qualifications for a widow seeking church support are very exacting”

Please don’t assume I haven’t read scriptures, this feels unkind. In terms of widows, there are other references to widows in scripture if you want to do this research. When you claim that a woman on welfare is getting pregnant on purpose and assume she is not a widow, how do you know the details of her life? How can you know she doesn’t meet the qualifications you claim to be universal throughout scripture? Even if you were to go to the welfare office, they wouldn't violate a woman's privacy by sharing any of her sins or lack thereof, so how do you determine which poor people to support, or do you support any?
To Be Continued………….

[brody196]

brody196,

1 John 3:17
But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?
Matthew 7:1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...
"If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor, he too will cry out and not be answered." Proverbs 21:13
"He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses." Proverbs 28:27

I think you are misunderstanding me and others here in regards to the issue at hand. No one here is saying that we should not give to the poor. The main thing that I was pointing out was the need to discern on a case-by-case basis as to whom we will support with the money God has entrusted us with.

[jesusrules777]

brody196,
Can you show me the scripture which tells us to use discernment when giving to the poor and what qualifies them to be supported? Where do you feel we should draw the line? Which sins deem them unworthy for help? If a person is addicted to alcohol, drugs, etc. they still need food, water and shelter don't they? Do we really believe they should be punished to the point of starving to death because they can't break free from their addiction? Where is that in scripture? I'm so surprised at this belief of needing to judge behaviors of the poor before we help them. There are many ways to help others than just handing over money. Even criminals are well provided for in prison, so why would we refuse any poor person in need of food, water, clothes or a place to sleep based upon their behaviors?

[brody196]

brody196,
Can you show me the scripture which tells us to use discernment when giving to the poor and what qualifies them to be supported? Where do you feel we should draw the line? Which sins deem them unworthy for help? If a person is addicted to alcohol, drugs, etc. they still need food, water and shelter don't they? Do we really believe they should be punished to the point of starving to death because they can't break free from their addiction? Where is that in scripture? I'm so surprised at this belief of needing to judge behaviors of the poor before we help them. There are many ways to help other than just handing over money. Even criminals are well provided for in prison, so why would we refuse any poor person in need of food, water, clothes or a place to sleep based upon their behaviors?

Steve already provided you scriptures, but you won't respond to his, so why should I bother?

You still seem to be missing the point. To further prove this, will you give me $800? There is this really nice new guitar amp that I have been wanting...and technically I am poor, because I don't make a lot of money...So what do you say?

[jesusrules777]

Steve wrote:

Hmmmm. Having a hard time seeing the aptness of your analogy.

I used the Donkey analogy because your references about the government "stealing" our money as well as them being an institution rather than people (you stated these on your radio show this week), led me to believe you don't seem to view them as a credible tool which the Lord would use. If the Lord chose an animal to speak through, he could just as easily use an "institution" to provide for His children.

"Why do you bring up "self-righteousness in their hearts," when you have previously made the case that we can't know what is in a person's heart?"

The Bible tells me that "no one is righteous, NOT ONE," so I didn't mention anything that wasn't in scripture. I did not attempt to decide which people are coming from this place of contrived righteousness and therefore treat them differntly as you seem to feel is correct for the poor and needy.

"you can know of the evil in the heart of a Christian"

again, my Bible tells me about the condition of our hearts, not something I made up.

"Is there some consistent basis underlying your recommendations here?"

I'm surprised you need clarification with regard to the consistentcy, however, I'll meet that need and encourage you to pray throughly (if you didn't) before responding to my posts that you seem to be challenging for you to understand. You are putting words in my posts that aren't there when you say I'm recommending "giving without discretion." Your confusion is due in part to your own addition of words which are not in my posts.Giving to the poor (not the poor whom we decide is worthy) is clearly a requirement of the Believer. When ministries are no longer supporting the poor, as the Bible commands, why would we support that refusal to give to the poor by giving them money. I'm not sure why you are having such a struggle with these connections.

"behavior of a self-indulgent drunkard or that of a self-indulgent television evangelist."

If a poor drunkard needs food, water, shelter and clothing, the Bible tells us to support him. Obviously we don't buy him alcohol, but we can provide for his NEEDS. If a televangelist spends all the money he manipulates from people, becomes poor and is need of food, water, shelter and clothing, the Bible tells us to give to him without judgment.

"It seems that your concerns are all over the map here. "

Again, Steve we have a difference in our style of communicating. Mine is not wrong because it is different from you. If you are only able to focus on one thing at a time, that is your issue and I would greatly appreciate it if you wouldn't project that towards me. I have attempted to explain myself in a user friendly manner, however this is getting redundant.

"However, when the government covers the tab, the need is covered, rendering other sources of aid superfluous."

Are you seriously that out of touch with people living in U.S. poverty to believe that statement? When was the last time you visited DSHS or Planned Parenthood and spoke with people attempting to survive on what you claim is "covering the tab?" This ignorance speaks volumes as to how you are rationalizing your discrimination towards certain poor people.

"I had been under the mistaken notion, until this point, that you were attempting to interact with my points on the subject under discussion"

Again, Steve your need to control our discussion and my method of communicating is counterproductive to the goal of getting to the Truth. Not sure, why you feel this is helpful.

"(behaviors, incidentally, by which you seem willing to judge other people's hearts)"

With this statement, you are judging me for sharing what the Bible tells me about our hearts. Again, counterproductive.....

"The prodigal son's father was more than willing to help his son, upon his return to his proper place. However, when the son was suffering in the distant land, due to his wasteful behavior, we do not read of his father sending him care packages to support his self-destructive habits."

We also don't read about the son being poor and being refused any kind of help because of his actions. In fact, as soon as he asked for help, it was given to him. The Bible doesn't say that the father asked him if he were a drunkard or someone unworthy of provision. It doesn't say that the son had to "qualify" for his provision in any way. It doesn't say, "the son was not a drunkard and therefore was worthy of provision."

"but it is their actions (not their reasons) that place them in a class requiring certain censures and penalties."

Where is this need for censures and penalties regarding certain poor people in scripture? Where does it say that a poor drunkard does not deserve provision? It sounds like you are not extremely educated in the area of physical addictions? When a person is addicted to alcohol, many of them need medical care to stop drinking or the withdrawls could kill them. To judge them as deserving of penalty because of a physical addiction they need help to break free from is shocking to say the least. Christians are to be known for our LOVE, not our labeling people as "drunkards" and refusing to help them while claiming they need to be penalized. Why is it important to know the reason a person turns to drugs or alcohol? They may have been traumatized and can't afford medical help so they turned to alcohol, like many of the people from our country who have gone to war. Maybe the military men and women weren't able to wait in line for the medical help they are supposed to be receiving and needed something to help their pain. So, based upon your theory, people who went to war to protect you don't deserve your help because this trauma caused them to become addicted to alcohol? Therefore you just label them a "drunkard" and decide they don't deserve your support in return?

"True, but very far afield of the subject we have been discussing here"

Again, Steve WE have been discussing, we are both free to mention whatever subject we feel led to discuss. Your criticisms are not necessary.

[kaufmannphillips]

One most eminent command is to love one's neighbor as oneself.

One's neighbor might or might not have the same faith.
One's neighbor might be a friend or might be an enemy.
One's neighbor might or might not be making responsible life choices.
One's neighbor might have had two or more former spouses.
One's neighbor might or might not have left a wake of destruction behind them.
One's neighbor might or might not be tempted to squander what you give to them.
One's neighbor might be seeking G-d's face, or might be fleeing to Tarshish.

But who among us has not, at some point, been a neighbor like one or more of these? (cf. Matthew 18:23ff.)

[steve]

Jesusrules777,

Steve, in terms of your last post, it feels like you have been triggered?

Interesting case of projection. If you will look at the beginning of this thread, it would seem that you are the one who was triggered. You simply launched into a tirade against some of your pet-peeves, even though nothing in the conversation to which you were responding had any connection to those peeves. You will note that you came in with guns blazing, accusing those who wish to be good stewards (me, apparently, and others who share with me such an interest) with having evil and selfish hearts. I have not taken offense, since you do not apparently know me, and because I am well accustomed to absorbing false accusations without offense. However, I did answer you, calmly and biblically. This only got you more agitated. You may wish to re-read the thread to see if I am making this up.

My response to you may be regarded as me being "triggered," in the sense that anyone who says anything at this forum may trigger a response from anyone else, including me. If you will read my responses to you, you will find that that is exactly what they were—responses to your points. That is not only what I do here, but what I expect all participants to do here—namely, respond to the points made by the people to whom they are responding.

You are obviously very zealous about helping the poor. Would you object to answering two personal questions (just since I don't know you, and am trying to fit your concerns into a context):

1) Are you poor?

2) What percentage of your income do you contribute to the poor?

-------------------------------------------
kaufmannphillips,

If one thinks that loving one's neighbor means supporting their drug habit, or any form of enablement of our neighbor to ruin his life and the lives of others, then Jesus definitely does teach us to be undiscerning in our administration of our stewardship. I do not interpret love that way. I will continue to give my counsel to those who ask it concerning their exercise of stewardship. If they choose to support causes that I would not support, I will gladly let them interpret what it means to "love" their neighbor, and I will follow my convictions on the same.

[jesusrules777]

"should not be supported with church funds (1 Tim.5:3-13)."

This is referring to church funding, not individual, personal giving from Believers.

"refuse to work, are not to be supported (2 Thess.3:10)."

This verse is directed towards the Thessalonians who had stopped working in anticipation of Christ's return. Their false understandings had led them to live irresponsibly. Paul told them to get back to work or their consequence would be "not to eat." This scripture has nothing to do with a Believer being told to refuse helping the poor and needy.

"government agency can not be trusted to follow such guidelines."

We as Believers are not called to place our trust in ANY man or agency but only in God, therefore we can trust God to use government agencies to provide for His children if that is what He chooses. Who are we to tell Him how He is going to meet the needs of His created beings? The government is far more objective in terms of their guidelines for helping the poor, than legalistic Christians who believe in discriminating based upon certain behaviors. Any Believer who is so blinded by the log in their own eye while looking for the speck in a poor person, doesn't deserve the blessing which comes when we give to the poor. If certain Believers were in charge of provision for the poor, all the people addicted to alcohol and drugs would starve to death rather than have their needs met.

"My main complaint about your posts is not concerning how you communicate, but how you judge others' hearts so uncharitably, without requiring any evidence against them. This may be a blind spot of yours, which is the reason I attempt to point it out to you (something you apparently don't take too kindly to)."

Do you really want to go there? Ok, so you are accusing me of judging? Didn't you say this week on the radio that "welfare women get pregnant on purpose for money?" Didn't you also say that the" government is stealing from us?" Didn't you say that "drunkards should be penalized rather than have their needs met?" How do you define a drunkard as you stated on your Broadcast that "there is nothing in the Bible which says that drinking alcohol is wrong?" You stated that your mom drinks every day, but apparently you are with her 24 hours so you know exactly how much she drinks and therefore is not classified as a "drunkard?" Who judges whether someone is consuming too much of what you say the Bible says is NOT wrong? If you are attempting to see "blind spots" in me, I think that log in your own eye is blocking your vision. I'm not sure what your comment about "not taking too kindly to" was about, seems like a judgment to me?

"There are many scriptures that tell us to be careful of our speech, because it is by our speech that others must, of necessity, discern our thoughts. If you do not wish to be corrected when you misspeak or when you exhibit hypocrisy (judging others for what you are yourself in the act of doing) then this forum is not a good place to participate, because people here are interested in the truth, and will cross examine any claims to the same that are posted here. Mostly, people will assume that you are saying what you mean. Though there are some people, perhaps, incapable of saying what they mean, those folks would be wise to avoid posting on the internet where others will see what they are saying (and might conclude that they meant what they said, and respond to it accordingly). It is Jesus who said we will be judged by what we say."

Have you changed the discussion to the subject of speech? Alright, I'll go there as well. Again Steve, do you really feel qualified to speak about hypocrisy or misspeaking? Anyone could listen to the archives of your radio broadcasts and see many examples of your hypocrisy as well as misspeaking as you are an imperfect being just like the rest of us. It is interesting you mention me needing correction with regards to hypocrisy when your accusations of my hypocrisy are hypocritical in and of themselves. There goes that log blocking your vision again. I have a great question for you on this same subject of correction. If I listen to your Broadcast, how often will I ever hear you accepting correction, humbling yourself and being accountable for your misspeaking and hypocrisy? How often will I hear you admit you are wrong? Aren't your accusations towards me really about you? How do you feel about being cross examined as you say this forum is about? It feels like you have a need to control what is said on this forum, especially when someone cross examines you and places the same expectations on you? I agree with your statement about us being judged for what we say which is the reason I am cross examining your statements about refusing to help EVERYONE who is need, as well as your unedifying words towards the government and welfare mothers. Do you really believe the Lord wants you to call the earthly authority a bunch of thieves? Where is that in the Bible?

"If so, then a concern for truth (more than for the mere opportunity to ventilate a litany of pet peeves) would cause you to welcome correction where your statements fall short of being true."

Are you judging my style of communicating as being a litany of pet peeves and statements which are not true? Ouch! What is in your heart that would speak this way towards one of your spiritual siblings? Exactly which statements in my posts are not true and needing correction? You have made several accusations and yet not backed them up?? What exactly in my communications have you reduced to "pet peeves" in your mind? Apparently, you believe that you are in a position to determine which human perspectives are valid and which should be reduced to pet peeves? Does that sound arrogant or judgmental to you? Does it sound loving and open minded?

"The statements of your last post (e.g., "No Scriptures which tell us to discriminate against tain poor people based upon their outward behavior") make it plain that either you have not read the scriptures I presented in my first response to you (a very strange thing to neglect before answering), or else that you read them and ignored their content because they went against your position. It cannot be argued that your position (over agaist the one you are criticizing) enjoys the best scriptural support. It should be obvious that we all accept the truth of the scriptures that you just presented—they do not contradict anything I have written to you."

I stand by my statement regarding the scriptures as the ones you mentioned are not relevant. I already shared about this, so I won't repeat myself. Please don't accuse people of "neglecting to read scripture" especially when you are giving irrelevant passages. Perhaps, you should have re-read them prior to responding to me so you could digest their irrelevance. Rather than hypocritically accusing me of "ignoring" the scriptures, it would benefit you to receive that correction you seem to feel I'm avoiding? Again, I've addressed the scriptures you mentioned which are about "church funds", NOT the personal funds of a Believer who is commanded again and again to GIVE TO THE POOR, universally without condition.

"By the way, is the reason you cut off the quote from Matthew 25, where you did, that the next line contradicts your position and supports what I have been saying to you from the beginning?

Again Steve, I don't use manipulation of the scriptures for ANY reason and I find that accusation to be unkind. Please remember your statement with regard to "being judged for your words."

"If you are a disciple, then you should be a learner. Let the word of God teach you, and correct you, where necessary. That is what we are here to do—not to defend our poorly-thought-out, off-the-cuff statements against all valid correction."

Steve, are you a learner? If so, how can you back that statement up with regard to how much you have learned from the people who call you? If you are a disciple, you should be a learner and it this teachability should be evident in your posts as well as your broadcast. If you are unwilling to learn and instead just hang up on people who try to teach you while insisting you are right, or delete posts which show areas where you need to learn, isn't that hypocritical for you to look for that speck in my eye? If you are not on here to defend your poorly thought out off the cuff statements like the "government steals from us, people addicted to alcohol deserve to be penalized and not receive provision, women on welfare are getting pregnant for money," why don't you walk your talk and receive valid correction?

"I have responded kindly and honestly to the points you raised"

Do you truly believe you resonded kindly? Perhaps you said something you didn't mean?

Luke 11:41 "SO GIVE TO THE NEEDY WHAT YOU GREEDILY POSSESS, AND YOU WILL BE CLEAN ALL OVER................................................

[Paidion]

Can you show me the scripture which tells us to use discernment when giving to the poor and what qualifies them to be supported? Where do you feel we should draw the line? Which sins deem them unworthy for help? If a person is addicted to alcohol, drugs, etc. they still need food, water and shelter don't they? Do we really believe they should be punished to the point of starving to death because they can't break free from their addiction? Where is that in scripture? I'm so surprised at this belief of needing to judge behaviors of the poor before we help them. There are many ways to help others than just handing over money. Even criminals are well provided for in prison, so why would we refuse any poor person in need of food, water, clothes or a place to sleep based upon their behaviors?

With or without scripture, we are exhorted to discern. In a previous post I quoted the the Didache: "Let your money sweat in your hand until you know to whom you should give." The writer obviously didn't think we should give to anyone at all who appears to be poor.

Having said this, let me affirm that my personal inclination is to give unconditionally to everyone whom I perceive to be in need. And now for an account of a personal experience. I saw a young couple at a gas station, the woman obviously pregnant and close to her time. They needed a ride to a town further north. We invited them to stay overnight at our house, indicating that we would take them to the town the next day. So we did that, giving them supper. The next day we drove them to the town (about 40 miles from our house) where they rented a hotel room. (I didn't question how they had the money to do this). The next day, the man phoned me, telling us that they were hungry, and asking us for money. I had no reason to disbelieve him (Love believes all things), but I told him I would bring food for them . We packed up a carton of a variety of foods, and drove about 40 miles to the hotel where they were staying — only to be told that they had departed.

Did we do the right thing? Or should we have been more discerning?

[steve]

" people addicted to alcohol deserve to be penalized and not receive provision, women on welfare are getting pregnant for money"

Please document that I said these two things.

Also, please answer my previous two questions:

1) Are you poor?

2) What percentage of your income do you contribute to the poor?

While you may consider this judgmental, I am not taking, at face value, your claim to being my "spiritual sibling." My siblings exhibit the Spirit of my Father. That is how they are recognized.

Also, your use of the word sibling informs me that I am probably dealing with a woman here (rather than "a brother"). If I had known this earlier, I would have responded with greater chivalry, and not been surprised at the tone or method of your arguments (by which comment I mean no insult to the several very sensible women who participate here).