Hell

[jriccitelli]

I am not sure why one would be better off to "take a side" on such an issue.

I appreciate the ability to look at other alternatives and perspectives in a scholarly way, likewise many issues don’t have a side that could make much of a difference with regards to salvation. Yet the hell and eschatology inherent to this issue is one of eternal destinies. Although you are free to perceive that the punishment described in so many certain verses are temporal and or survivable (even ‘restorative’), many like me perceive that the certain eternal separation and (or) certain non-existence is a far worse scenario in the end, than restoration, ultimately.

Is there some reason that it should? Why should it bother anyone else?

God seemed to put a whole lot of emphasis on punishing sin from Genesis to Revelation, and death is the punishment. Where it seems obvious to me that 'all' are guilty of sin, and since there is now no respect to Greek or Jew, I would be afraid to suggest that the judgments in question did ‘not’ describe an 'eternal' death, since there is no direct indication given of the unrighteous dead ever being anything but dead.

As with many other isms, I see the breakdown in reason far earlier in the debate than in the conclusion. I do not see how ‘any’ biblical judgment in scripture would not give anyone reason to consider their ‘own’ standing with God in relation to sin: the biblical stories detail ‘all kinds’ of sins God hates and makes a huge point of putting the guilty to death.

If Christ had not risen there would be no hope at all, scripture points out that the unbeliever has no hope and is considered dead to God.

Universalism is jumping over a vast chasm – death – and ‘expecting’ life for unbelievers, when even the mention of a ‘second chance’ is absent, if not taught against, and explicitly denied for those who reject Christ. The debate is helpful, but I don’t know how you could ‘wonder’ why someone might be deeply ‘concerned’ about the aspect of someone believing or not believing in Universalism.

[steve7150]

If Christ had not risen there would be no hope at all, scripture points out that the unbeliever has no hope and is considered dead to God.








JR you can relax and rest easy in the fact we know your position is "Annihilation." If i had a dollar for every time you mentioned it i might be on a Carribian island that i owned right now.
We also know that everyone , even the ones God destroyed are raised to judgment. So when all the dead are raised and are judged is what the long discussion is about.
They are judged by their works so i'm thinking that if they simply get annihilated again then why judge them by their works, just zap them out of existence!

[jriccitelli]

Why suggest ‘anyone’ can relax and rest easy, isn’t the Bible warning against just that in regards to our destiny with God? I agreed to having and entertaining opinions, but I disagree that UR is a defendable option that one can entertain without eternal consequences.

I cannot rest ‘because’ I know your position, I am not in ministry for my own sake or entertainment, but because the word burns in me, to save others, because I love them. I think this teaching is as dangerous as denying the Deity of Christ, on par with salvation by works and disbelief in the authority of scripture. I believe something like Evolution, Polytheism can divert one from God but not cause one to put off a decision to repent in this life. Other isms demand repentance now; Calvinism, Legalism, Word of Faithism, even Catholicism, Judaism and Mormonism demand repentance in this life, and allow little hope for post-mortem repentance. A person could brush off what we see as clear warnings in scripture to the effect that you are without hope and dead unless you repent and believe in this world.

We also have a different view of why Law and justice demand payment, and fulfillment. If there is no punishment there is no law. God said He demands it, and He will keep his Word, just my opinion.

Other religions like Hinduism come right out and offer a post-mortem chance, why does God warn us he wont so that He can make it a big surprise? I would credit Hinduism for being more honest.

[steve7150]

We also have a different view of why Law and justice demand payment, and fulfillment. If there is no punishment there is no law. God said He demands it, and He will keep his Word, just my opinion.










JR , just to repeat again, i do think there is punishment for sin. Just to repeat again, why do you think EVERYONE (Rev 20) is raised up for judgment? Specifically judged by their works. What do you think this means? Merry Christmas!

[jriccitelli]

... so i'm thinking that if they simply get annihilated again then why judge them by their works, just zap them out of existence!

Because they must pay the tab for their wild living and use of earths resources, that’s why
Again, death does not excuse one from punishment. God raises them to punish them, it is just and it is His ‘promise’. Many millions of people just sin away and don’t care because they believe they are just going to die, and that will be it. God warns that they’ve got another thing coming. Does this make sense?
This whole period of time will forever be a monument and a memory to mans disbelief in punishment for sin, and the smoke of it will go up forever.

Just to repeat again, i do think there is punishment for sin. Just to repeat again, why do you think EVERYONE (Rev 20) is raised up for judgment? Specifically judged by their works. What do you think this means?

(I appreciate your calm questions, and hanging in there 7150) I know UR has post-mortem punishment, but UR is saying the;

punishment described in so many certain verses are temporal and or survivable, even ‘restorative’(My words above)

This may give the hearer a reason to put off repentance. UR says no matter how long you wait God will forever be ready to accept your repentance. UR can cause one to thinks it is ok to wait, even past death because the opportunity to repent will always be there for you. If this is not true (and scripture warns against this thinking) the consequences are eternal.
UR makes one think the punishment is horrible (I guess) but in ones mind you would have to think this punishment is more tolerable or less extreme than one that ends in eternal death. And as some UR would suggest it is ‘restorative punishment’, this would greatly reduce the fear I would have in regards to punishment for sin. I think I have just described the religion that most people believe; God will accept me as I am, and He wont let me suffer, or not for long because my sins are not so bad. And I will just find out when I get there (this has to be the most common response I get from unbelievers)

Don’t you think some people have been given ample time and opportunity to repent and believe?
Some even go out of their way to insult and treat the blood of Christ as an unholy thing, doesn’t the bible warn against such things as rather unforgivable?
And a merry Christmas to you too.

[steve7150]

Don’t you think some people have been given ample time and opportunity to repent and believe?
Some even go out of their way to insult and treat the blood of Christ as an unholy thing, doesn’t the bible warn against such things as rather unforgivable?
And a merry Christmas to you too.

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jriccitelli

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Yes the bible warns against insulting the blood of Christ as an unholy thing and there will be hell to pay But only blaspheming the Holy Spirit was what Jesus said was unforgivable "in this age OR the age to come." Jesus pointed out that in the age to come blaspheming the Holy Spirit was unforgivable, which to me sounds like in the age to come only blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unforgivable contrasting this against everything else. Don't you agree JR?

What about Mr Big Sinner who is on his deathbed and has 5 minutes to live and he repents and gives his life to Jesus, and then dies 4 minutes later? Contrast him with a teenage girl who takes care of her poor neighbors kids out of compassion in a poor section of Africa. Unfortunately she never heard of Jesus and at the age of 15 is killed by a stray bullet. What are the fates of Mr Big Sinner and the poor girl?

[Ian]

What about Mr Big Sinner who is on his deathbed and has 5 minutes to live and he repents and gives his life to Jesus, and then dies 4 minutes later? Contrast him with a teenage girl who takes care of her poor neighbors kids out of compassion in a poor section of Africa. Unfortunately she never heard of Jesus and at the age of 15 is killed by a stray bullet. What are the fates of Mr Big Sinner and the poor girl?

You and I could probably come up with these all day if we put our mind to it, Steve7150. Here`s one that springs to mind just now:

Cliff Richard is a devout Christian and an all round great guy. But he has led an unusually privileged life. One can never be sure, but it looks on the surface like his highs have been higher and his lows less low than many in this life.

Contrast him with the long-suffering parent of a severely autistic child. The child lives in a world that seems "specifically designed to torment him" (Greg Boyd talking about his son). He might even tearfully and repeatedly bang his hands against his ears in obvious agony, much to the distress of his mother (and dismay of his taxi driver by the way). The child goes to heaven by Steve Gregg`s theology (no problem with that incidentally) but the bitter, confused parents do not. "Where are my mummy and daddy? They looked after me and I know I was a massive burden to them!"

The above scenario is no problem to the Calvinist ("there`s many a baby a span long in hell" - Calvin) or to the Universalist, but I submit that it is a problem to the strict Arminianist.

[steve7150]

The above scenario is no problem to the Calvinist ("there`s many a baby a span long in hell" - Calvin) or to the Universalist, but I submit that it is a problem to the strict Arminianist.









Yes i agree but you don't have to be a Universalist to find a path to justice, simply the existence of postmortem salvation makes it clear how justice can be found.
JR is concerned about sinners getting another chance to repent but many folks never had a real chance to know Jesus so they never had any chance.

[jriccitelli]

We are not talking about those who never had a chance, I am talking of those who did hear, refused, and even worse, some go out of their way to blaspheme God and the Gospel. I agree that UR would be nice I suppose, but scripture warns of some (or many) who refuse to repent (Rev 9:21,16:9 etc.). It is all around us, people actually spit on Christ, they love their sin more than redemption. Many even 'say' they believe, but they act as if they couldn't care less.

[steve7150]

We are not talking about those who never had a chance, I am talking of those who did hear, refused,











OK i know your position on people who had a fair chance but what about my example? What do you think JR?