The Logical Fallacy of Christian Universalism

[jriccitelli]

Ok then, so it’s not the place (Gehenna) that is of significance, it’s the judgment then, right?
And still they are all dead, why in your opinion is dying under the wrath of God different than dying?
You said it makes a great difference, is the difference then post mortem?

[Paidion]

It refers to becoming victims of the holocaust of AD 70 and dying under the judgment of God. This is total destruction of soul and body, because it brings one into the judgment of God as a condemned rebel.

Steve, many people consider the holocaust of the 20th century carried out by Adolph Hitler, also to be the judgment of God on Jewish rebels against the Messiah. Is that your opinion? Just curious.

[steve]

Steve, many people consider the holocaust of the 20th century carried out by Adolph Hitler, also to be the judgment of God on Jewish rebels against the Messiah. Is that your opinion? Just curious.

I am not sure. God did speak of such things as His doing (Lev.26:14-43 and Deut.28:15ff). Moses explicitly warned that these things would happen to Israel when they would reject God and find themselves scattered among the hostile nations, but it sounds as if He is mostly talking about 722 and 586 BC, from which He later restored the remnant (Lev.26:44-45).

Since Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks (9:24-27) seems to identify AD 70 with the end of God's special dealings with Israel as a nation, Israel's problems since that time (e.g., the modern holocaust, the Russian pogroms, and other historic outbreaks of antisemitism) might more properly be understood to be the natural consequences of God having removed His protection from Israel, rather than His active punishing of them.

More clearly, John the Baptist (Matt.3:10-12) and Jesus (Matt.22:7; 23:35-36; Luke 19:43-44) specifically identified the destruction of Jerusalem as God's deliberate judgment upon those who rejected His Messiah. I believe many of the prophets also spoke of AD 70 as God's judgment (e.g., Isaiah 24; 65:2, 6; 66:24; Joel 2:30-31; Amos 9:8-10; Zech.11:16; 13:7-8; 14:1-2; Mal.4:1, 5-6)

[steve]

And still they are all dead, why in your opinion is dying under the wrath of God different than dying?
You said it makes a great difference, is the difference then post mortem?

I should think anyone who loves God would know what a great disaster it would be to live one's life, and to die, under His displeasure. When speaking of the disaster of dying under God's wrath, I am not thinking primarily about postmortem consequences (though they would be very undesirable!), but of having expended one's only lifetime, cheating God out of the service and the pleasure that He deserves, and which He should have received. You only get one chance to fulfill God's purpose, to know Him and to glorify Him in this world. It would be hard to imagine a personal disaster greater than the squandering of that one chance.

[jriccitelli]

Matthew 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell'

I believe Jesus is talking to those under the Law specifically, yet the beatitudes (and Jesus other teachings as well) speak to ‘everyone who considers’ that even Gods own people could ‘not’ keep the Law, and specifically any who suppose that by our ‘own’ goodness we will escape judgment. Jesus says whoever and everyone who sins is in danger of judgment, not only the Jew.
Nevertheless, If someone truly loves God they would have at least filled half of God’s Commandment. We are neither condemned then by our works, otherwise we would have something of to boast.

And, I think the Judgment that befell those in 70ad Jerusalem, those who did not heed Jesus’ warnings to flee the wrath to come, paints a vivid picture indeed of what happens when we do not heed Gods warnings. His followers believed His words, followed his words, left town and everything, and thus saved their souls. But still everybody died, and some terribly still.

I was wondering about the Jews who didn’t love God, why was their death worse than a martyrs death.

[steve]

I was wondering about the Jews who didn’t love God, why was their death worse than a martyrs death.

You don't intuitively know why dying faithfully as one of God's heroes would be intrinsically superior to dying under God's judgment? It has everything to do with being pleasing to God—whether in life or in death.

It seems that too many evangelicals either have forgotten, or never knew, that the whole purpose of Christianity is that God should be pleased. Too many argue as if Christianity is about personal rescue from undesirable circumstances. If the circumstances from which one is rescued are not sufficiently undesirable, it raises questions, in their minds, as to the worthwhileness of the whole enterprise.

I do not understand this mentality at all, and, to be simply honest, it sounds to me as if it is a different religion from that of the Bible. It is entirely man-centered and self-centered. Christianity is God-centered. This is why conversion to Christ requires repentance—a radical reorientation of the mind, in which self-interest is replaced with concern for the glory of God. Without this change, people are doomed to reason like the Reformed defender of traditionalism, Robert A. Morey, who wrote:

If annihilationism is true, then the wicked should practice the gross ethics of hedonism. A lifetime of being a self-conscious ego who experiences the joys of life is intrinsically better than nonexistence. After all, a wicked life is still better than no life at all…annihilationists have never been able to explain why hedonism is not the most obvious and logical way of life if their position is true. (Robert A. Morey, Death and the Afterlife, 156f)

This sounds like the reasoning of a man badly in need of conversion!

[steve7150]

I do not understand this mentality at all, and, to be simply honest, it sounds to me as if it is a different religion from that of the Bible. It is entirely man-centered and self-centered. Christianity is God-centered. This is why conversion to Christ requires repentance—a radical reorientation of the mind, in which self-interest is replaced with concern for the glory of God. Without this change, people are doomed to reason like the Reformed defender of traditionalism, Robert A. Morey, who wrote:

If annihilationism is true, then the wicked should practice the gross ethics of hedonism. A lifetime of being a self-conscious ego who experiences the joys of life is intrinsically better than nonexistence. After all, a wicked life is still better than no life at all…annihilationists have never been able to explain why hedonism is not the most obvious and logical way of life if their position is true. (Robert A. Morey, Death and the Afterlife, 156f)

This sounds like the reasoning of a man badly in need of conversion!





This is stuff really worth meditating on for everyone especially me. When just about every message we hear over the media and in our culture is about ourselves, it takes a lot of discipline and meditation on the Word to accept this view of our lives into our hearts. Well said, this is the essence of living.

[jriccitelli]

I’m sorry I wrote this sentence wrong;

We are neither condemned then by our works, otherwise we would have something of to boast (WRONG).

We are not made righteous by our works, otherwise we would have something of to boast.
The verse I was thinking of was Paul, as in Eph 2:9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I don’t know how many evangelicals either have forgotten, or never knew, that the whole purpose of Christianity is that God should be pleased’ as you say, but that is not my experience. I could go to church on Sunday and ask the group generally speaking ‘why or what the purpose of Christianity is’ and I am positive most will reply ‘to make for himself a people, a people set apart, made holy, etc’ and like the rest of Ephesians 3:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I hope that clears it up.

[Paidion]

You don't intuitively know why dying faithfully as one of God's heroes would be intrinsically superior to dying under God's judgment? It has everything to do with being pleasing to God—whether in life or in death.

It seems that too many evangelicals either have forgotten, or never knew, that the whole purpose of Christianity is that God should be pleased. Too many argue as if Christianity is about personal rescue from undesirable circumstances.

Thank you Steve! You have stated what ought to be obvious to every disciple of Christ, who has forsaken all self-service, and submitted himself entirely to Christ as Lord of his life. There are only two options:
1. Serve the Lord and other people (as Christ did).
2. Serve yourself.

Those who serve themselves see everything in terms of what they can get out of it.
Those who serve the Lord see everything in terms of what they can GIVE in their service to Him and to others.

[jriccitelli]

I know there will always be self serving people in the church, but I don’t think it is central to how you understand Matt 5.

I don’t know why you are quoting Robert Morey and associating it with a view I hold, I had never heard of him, and from what I just read online, he is in need of something (I don’t know what). That was an unfair and untrue association.

I hear the repeated taunt that we, or someone, is saying that we (us, who?) believes Jesus died ‘just’ to save us from Hell (fire, outer darkness, annihilation, whatever), I know I have written repeatedly how the cross changes our heart (‘should’ change our heart), etc. but I know I just recently said in a thread (directly to Paidion) Jesus our Savior saves us from ‘everything’, past, present, future, that is what a Savior does.

Jesus death saves us from the penalty of sin; The judgment on Adam and Eve = Death
(Jesus death saves us from our very own specific post mortem punishment of sins also, our own sins, our guilt, and the degrees we would have faced for our own sins specifically, from petty theft to adultery, to murder)

Jesus life saves us from the slavery of sin, Jesus life in us gives us the ability to defeat sin.
(Jesus new life, His resurrection, His Spirit in us, the New man, the person who has died and been raised with Christ, the person who has crucified the flesh, who has died to sin, this person can now begin to experience the power to overcome sin, and it’s effects)

Jesus died in our place, the wrath of God fell upon Him. He is our Passover, the angel of death passes by overhead, we look upon Him and death is diverted just as they were told to look upon the serpent that Moses lifted up, just as our sins were symbolically placed on the animals, so to He died in our place.
His body is also the Life giving sacrifice, if we eat of it. Unless the Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in us, we are still dead. So yes we are ‘saved’ from our sins, by Spirit, by the power of a ‘resurrected’ life.

As I ‘have’ said, I believe the Bible speaks of deserving, fair, and just punishment, meaning that sins will be punished each according to their degrees. Post mortem predominantly, albeit it will be Gods decision. There are worse sins, and lesser sins, and more sins, and some sinned even more. The sinner will suffer and be punished for his own sins, each accordingly. This is the suffering, agony, and wrath spoken of, described and warned of ‘throughout’ scripture and eventually and finally the unrepentant and wicked will be thrown in the LOF, which is the second death, from this there is no indication anyone returns and they are dead, forever. This I do not believe is eternal torment, but the second death is the eternal annihilation ('after' their punishment, and the final punishment being the second death.