Trinity.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Trinity.

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:42 am

I am getting the distinct impression that even if I showed you a verse where it did say just that, it wouldn't dislodge you even momentarily from your paradigm. I have already shown you where the Scriptures say that it was God the Father that granted Jesus "all authority"; "all judging"; to "have life in himself", etc. etc. and these haven't as much as dented your mental bullwork, so why should yet another verse? (Brenden)
The scriptural paradigm is that from Moses and all the Prophets we are instructed and commanded that God alone holds these positions and powers. We are then confronted with a man born of a woman who 'claims' to have all the authority, positions and powers that only God alone could have.
It would be another thing if God had not made such a point of His own Oneness, and had also revealed that He would at least 'share' His positions with at least one other being, or two, but there is no case for that (unless you are hold to Greek mythology, Hinduism etc.)
There is a OT case for His being plural, and instances where God showed up in the 'form' of man and angel.

Jesus has taken the 'form' of a servant, a man, and a sacrifice. This is not Jesus’ previous place, yet in this humble state God glorifies the work of the servant by giving him all the robes of His previous place.

This was done because God is not confused about the nature of Himself and the nature of man.
This was done so that we would 'not' believe the nature of God and the nature of a created being were equal with the nature of God. And this is why we are 'not' confused about the nature of Christ, because we believe scripture says 'God will not share His Glory and that God has no equal', and that Christ in the form of man made himself out to be God. If He did not claim to be God, and was a being other than God, we would have to discern he was not from God. And may well be the Angel who told us we could also be like God :twisted:

Prophet after Prophet declare Gods Oneness and the sin of proposing an equal to God. God goes to extremes to convince them that other gods are futile and the reason of their rebuke and idolatry. Do we then toss that all aside as a mistake because ‘now’ he has an equal in Jesus?

In the middle of Isaiah’s bulwark of passages proclaiming Gods Oneness, and the repeated statements of His being alone - with no one beside Him - with no equal, even promising humiliation to any that suppose such equality with Him, God promises He will send an exalted suffering servant.

There is a bulwark of Gods commands that we shall have no-other gods, know no other gods, and neither imagine or create anything in His image, all under the penalty of death. This is indeed a mental bulwark.
I have much more respect for Judaism and Islamic beliefs than for Arianism, at least they hold to the basic understanding that God has no equal or co-partner, and they recognize that being a unique Son makes Him equal and of the same nature. They just need to hear Jesus, and 'believe Him' and the Words of God that He claimed equality with :)

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:37 pm

First, due to the press of work TheEditor apologizes for inadvertently committing the cardinal error of mis-spelling "bulwark". This goes to show this thread has gone on far too long. :D

I must say I find some of your passion about this intriguing. You make much of God's use of exclusiveness ("one true God") and demand, because of this, that all verses in the Bible; all statements of Christ; all comments of Jesus' Apostles and all common sense be tabled, because of this rigid insistence that when Jehovah uttered these words, no other things (idol worship, etc.) need come into play when understanding how God can share His glory with another; as if Jesus is just another idol of stone. I find this intriguing for the following reasons:

I am not a believer in UR. I also know that you likewise do not accept UR. And yet, I have read with interest page after page of your insisting that reason, common sense of justice and an appreciation that "ALL" sometimes doesn't mean "ALL", as justification for rejecting UR. And now, when the tables are turned, oh so slightly, you do not show a nuanced approach to the subject, rather, you remove your shoe and pound on the table like Martin Luther "It says this IS my body and this IS my blood". Oh well.

You may think that your statement:

I have much more respect for Judaism and Islamic beliefs than for Arianism, at least they hold to the basic understanding that God has no equal or co-partner, and they recognize that being a unique Son makes Him equal and of the same nature.


might result in me responding "Them there's fightin' words". But it won't. I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry for someone that would say they have more respect for an Islamist than one who extends the hand of fellowship. I am dismayed that you have an apparent lack of historical knowledge regarding the thousands upon thousands of Arian martyrs in times past. At least you have the decency to not believe that they are burning in Hell right now for their profession.

I have tried to at least give you my best explanation of your proof texts; you have deliberately ignored the many quandaries I have raised. I doubt the quandaries escaped your engineers notice, so I can only assume you cannot answer.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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jriccitelli
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Re: Trinity.

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:50 am

Jesus is just another idol of stone if he is not God.
JWs themselves call Jesus ‘a’ god.

You shall have no other gods before Me. 4“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5“You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God… (Exodus 20)
‘… and an appreciation that "ALL" sometimes doesn't mean "ALL", as justification for rejecting UR’
I may have debated about the ‘all’ statement with Jeremiah, in one verse, It is one of the least of my own arguments, and certainly not my only argument with UR (The fundamental point of death not being temporal having taken up 70% of the time. There are dozens of doctrines rebutting UR, of which the all thing I have not made a big point)

I don’t think the semantics of ‘all’ can compare with the vast Biblical paradigm of Gods Oneness.
The theology of Gods nature is the predominate foundation of Christianity Theology, and Monotheism is the central theme of scripture. Polytheism is the antithesis of Biblical belief integrity and truth. There are even penalties of death for teaching of other gods, and or having anything to do with them or their professors. It is the foundational statement about God, and the first Command of the Law:
“Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the judgments which the LORD your God has commanded me to teach you… to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 “O Israel, you should listen and be careful to do it, that it may be well with you and that you may multiply greatly... “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5 “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 “These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. 7“You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up... You shall fear only the LORD your God; and you shall worship Him and swear by His name. 14“You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you, 15 for the LORD your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the LORD your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth… So the LORD commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God for our good always and for our survival, as it is today. 25“It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the LORD our God, just as He commanded us. (Deuteronomy 6)
This is the foundation of theology, Gods Law, and Command, it is not extra-biblical.

Sorry, I am not ignoring any questions, but this is the foundation of all questions regarding God. And I wrote three posts for this thread that I never even posted because it went past them so fast, one regarding statements in the first page. I am not ignoring, nor unable, I usually only write before I go to work, and I start at 6am, and I work overtime, don’t get home till after 5 or 8, so I 'try' to keep up here. I respect Islam ‘only’ on this theological point, I respect that Buddhists believe in right thinking, that Hindus are kind to animals, I wouldn’t take it as mean, I am making theological points.

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Homer
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Homer » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:26 am

I must say I have sympathy with what JR is trying to say - there is only one God and how do we defend Christianity from the charge of polytheism? I'm a simple guy. It seems to me if we say Jesus is divine but not God we are dodging the issue. Humans beget humans, chickens beget chickens, it seems that God would beget...another God. But if we maintain that God can be everywhere at once, why can't He be in multiple places at once in multiple forms? I. e. Father, Son, and Spirit? Why can't God come to earth as a man, yet be elsewhere simultaneously in another form?

And on the other hand if we say God is three persons to me that speaks of individuals, or three Gods.

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:49 am

So, Homer, from your understanding, to whom did Jesus pray? To Himself?

And when He cried out on the cross, "“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”, Was his God Himself? And did He think He had forsaken Himself?
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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:12 am

Hi JR,

You seem to suffer from the ongoing notion that I am still a JW or an Arian. I am neither, but am sympathetic to the Arian view due to holding to it from the age of accountability, until sometime (couldn't be specific) in the last 15 years. However, unlike you, I do not believe that this belief (or lack of the trinitarian one) disbars one from fellowship with other Christians, or from the Father or the Son. I also know many good folk that still are, and it doesn’t seem to impact their discipleship whatsoever.

This is the foundation of theology, Gods Law, and Command, it is not extra-biblical.


Well, maybe it is a fundamental truth that there is only one God, but which understanding--between Arianism and trinitarianism--seems to run afoul more of the notion? Seems to me if I recall my church history correctly, that one of the reasons for the rise of Islam, was Mohammed's seeing of icon-usage in the church, as well as perceived polytheism vis-a-vis the Trinity. Makes one wonder what would have happened in human history if at the time of Mohammed's rise, there were no images in the churches and the majority church was Arian...

I am not ignoring, nor unable, I usually only write before I go to work, and I start at 6am, and I work overtime, don’t get home till after 5 or 8, so I 'try' to keep up here.


I understand the time constraints. That's why I think it would be helpful if we ended the Johnny-one-note repetition of Deuteronomy and Isaiah. It isn't making any real point to me anyway.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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TheEditor
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Re: Trinity.

Post by TheEditor » Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:13 am

I must say I have sympathy with what JR is trying to say - there is only one God and how do we defend Christianity from the charge of polytheism? I'm a simple guy. It seems to me if we say Jesus is divine but not God we are dodging the issue. Humans beget humans, chickens beget chickens, it seems that God would beget...another God. But if we maintain that God can be everywhere at once, why can't He be in multiple places at once in multiple forms? I. e. Father, Son, and Spirit? Why can't God come to earth as a man, yet be elsewhere simultaneously in another form?

And on the other hand if we say God is three persons to me that speaks of individuals, or three Gods.


Hi Homer,

I agree, the conundrums are many, and the list is much longer the last time I checked mine... :lol:

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Homer
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Homer » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:14 pm

Hi Paidion,

No Jesus did not pray to Himself; somebody was "home" when He prayed to the Father. As I tried, in a crude way, to illustrate by analogy, our bodies have an internal communication system. Seems to me God can also. Just trying to make sense of the data, as you are.

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Paidion
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Re: Trinity.

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:26 pm

Thank you for your gracious reply, Homer. I am still trying to understand your position more fully.

When Jesus cried out on the cross, "“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”, was his God another part of Himself? And did one part of Himself think another part of Himself had forsaken the first part? If so, the two parts seem rather like two Persons, don't they?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: Trinity.

Post by PR » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:04 pm

Qustion for anyone who cares to respond...

If Jesus didn't claim to be God, why did the Jews kill him?

Thanks,

Phil

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