"Lordship Salvation"

[Jepne]

Some thoughts:

The important thing is relationship with God. We are His children. We are to call him “Pappy”. I guess when I think of someone I love and who loves me, who has authority in my life, I don’t think about obeying them, even though I know the scriptures say we must. He wants us to be expansive of heart – not obediently going by the rules in giving to the poor, but out of the heart which He has given us, we want to give to the poor, and everyone else, for that matter!

Thoughts in themselves are not sinful. Perhaps you have heard the expression, “The birds fly over and might land on your head, but you don’t have to let them make a nest there.”

Even though some thoughts may be tempting on one level, when you think them through, they are not only repulsive, but they don’t make sense on any level, and so we do not even consider carrying them out, rather than a “Gee, I better live by the rules here.” I am not tempted to take up smoking marijuana again because that part of my life is over – just as crawling on the floor – I know how to walk now. Actually, the last three times I smoked it, I was shown clearly how futile it was: for enjoying the beauty of a sunset, for helping the pain of a toothache, then the last, I fell asleep and wasted two hours of a beautiful morning, so it would be dumb to even consider it any more.

So, when I met Jesus, He gave me a new heart, wiped my slate clean, so I was saved in that sense. Then, He gave me the mind of Christ, a new way of thinking which ponders old ways when they come up and finds the new way of dealing with things. New life coming into mine, dying to self daily, taking on the mind of Christ – all these things are ongoing.


Steve said: “. . .even if sinless perfection is not necessarily a description of the Christian life, it is nonetheless the determination of the Christian life. A true believer really believes that Jesus is the Lord, and gladly embraces that reality with a determination to actualize and demonstrate that lordship in his/her own conduct.”

This is true, and a good statement. But, it is not out of obedience to Him, but because of the heart he has given me that I would really like to be humble in all of my character – to not even be tempted to get back at people, or prove myself right, and to be courageous to speak the truth even if it could bring persecution. I want that to be so ingrained in my character, that I would not even think about it, that I was being obedient. It would be ‘second nature’, so to speak.

The word 'obedience' brings to mind white knuckles. To have vision and direction from God brings joy.

“Indeed there is some part of us that the desires sin, and some part of us desires obedience and righteousness.” – Thrombomodulin

I don’t see us being composed of two parts. Sinful desires come, and one falls into sin if one’s mind is not stayed on the Lord and His goodness, or has not built one’s self up in the Holy Ghost with prayer and meditation on the scriptures. God inhabits the praises of His people. If we live by the Spirit we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.

“Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple. (Lu 14:27)”

When going through a large trial and thoughts come that are more than a little bird trying to make a nest – if we go through each day, one at a time, bearing the cross of heartache and betrayal and all the associated stuff, we would be behaving as disciples. And, if we are purposing to delight ourselves in the Lord, asking him to give us the desires of His heart, and trusting him for the outcome, then we will indeed be His disciples, by default, not by our own design.

Hmm. Make sense?

[Jepne]

"The word 'obedience' brings to mind white knuckles. To have vision and direction from God brings joy."

A bit idealistic, these words. A corrective came to mind - there was a time I had to white-knuckle through some prayers for an enemy. It was pure obedience. Thank you, Jesus, for your words! In that time, I learned the terrible need that that person had for having God in her life. Decades later, the need came again to pray for some enemies and it was not as difficult. Love is the only way through these things.

[jeremiah]

jepne,
many thanks for that.
grace and peace...

[Homer]

Hello Paidion,

I watched to the youtube sermon(?) you provided the link to. Apparently given in chapel at the college one of our granddaughters is attending! Now I am wondering if your view of salvation is the Orthodox belief in "theosis".

Here is an excellent article on it from the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society:

http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/ ... ndenin.pdf

[Ian]

No necessity forces us to choose between the two
or to see them as mutually exclusive categories that are contradictory.

That article beat me to it. I wanted to write - is it an either or? Could you not both be right on this?

[Paidion]

Now I am wondering if your view of salvation is the Orthodox belief in "theosis".

Hi Homer,

I expressed my view of salvation in The Supreme Sacrific of Jesus Christ which I posted in the old forum. Later, I discovered that Derek Flood expresses a quite similar view, both in his short articles and in his book Healing the Gospel. Then more recently I discovered that the Orthodox view of the efficacy of Christ's work is similar to mine also. This is the view that Christ died to save us from sin (deliver us from sinning) and to change our character.

Now if "theosis" means becoming God-like or Christ-like, then I believe in theosis. There is plenty of scripture which teaches this. That article to which you provided a link mentions the following passage:

His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. (2 Peter 1:3,4)

We also have this interesting passage:

For those whom he foreknew he also pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that He might be the first-born among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)

So we are in a process of being conformed to the image of God's Son, and "He who began a good work in you, will continue to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ."

I certainly don't believe that we can BE God! But the Orthodox don't either even though they call the process "deification". The Clendenin article quotes Maximos as saying, "When the Logos became man and deified us, he changed human nature not in its essential nature but in its quality." Maximos also wrote, "God will divinize human nature without changing it into the divine nature."
nature."

St. Makarios wrote even when we are deified by grace, "Peter is Peter,Paul is Paul, Philip is Philip. Each one retains his own nature and personal identity, but they are all filled with the Holy Spirit."

Mikhail Hany, a Coptic Orthodox teacher gave a series of talks on "Divine Justice" to show that it is quite different from the legal justice concept in which Christ appeases the wrath of God by being our substitute.
The latter is proclaimed by the Western Branch of the Catholic Church, namely the Romanists. From there Luther carried it into Protestantism. Hany, like Derek Flood, teaches that the Jewish sacrifices were not for the purpose of appeasing God, but for the purpose of purifiying.

You can listen to the first of Hany's lectures here, and if it captures your interest, you can listen to the others also:

http://www.mikeadkins.com/article/divin ... 2-english/

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

As Steve has in the past suggested, and the article suggests, why couldn't Jesus' sacrifice accomplish multiple things?

The "being saved" of your position seems to be sanctification, a distinction with little if any difference, but this may be only my impression.

I would be interested in how you would counsel a young Christian who inquired "When was I saved?" "How do I know I am saved?" "How do I stay saved?" If justification is dependent on sanctification or, as you say, a process of being saved, it seems we would never know for sure if our sanctification is sufficient because we still sin. What if we progreess a certain way and then plateau? Is continual progress necessary? Is our sanctification, or works, instrumental or evidentiary? So many questions come to mind.

It seems to me both justification and sanctification come through faith and grace.

[Paidion]

As Steve has in the past suggested, and the article suggests, why couldn't Jesus' sacrifice accomplish multiple things?

So many questions in one post! But I can understand this when you are examining a totally different paradigm of salvation.

I will begin by rephrasing the above question somewhat: "Why couldn't Jesus' sacrifice both appease the Father's anger through penal substitution AND enable people to become righteous through enabling grace?"

The idea of penal substitution seems ludicrous if we try to place it in any other setting or circumstance. For example, suppose when you were younger, you had two teenage sons, 12 y. old Peter and 10 y. old Joseph. Suppose Peter committed a serious wrongful act. You were just about to punish him severely (however you understand "punishment") but he told you, "I know you are angry, Father, but Joseph has agreed to take my punishment in my place. So you can just take out your anger on him and let me off the hook. That would be all right with you, wouldn't it, Father? I know you have to punish someone for this evil act. It doesn't matter who. So just punish Joseph for it! He is completely willing to suffer in my place.That will give you the satisfaction you require."

So would you be satisfied to punish Joseph instead of Peter? Would you feel that justice had been done?

I know it is said that the Father agreed with the penal substitution of His Son. Perhaps you wouldn't agree with the penal substitution of Joseph. It seems to me that you wouldn't be just if you did so. But just suppose that you did agree with it. Would your act accomplish "multilple things"? Would it also make Peter a better person? Would he be less likely to do wrong in the future?

And who in his right mind would applaud you as a fair and just father?

[Homer]

The idea of penal substitution seems ludicrous if we try to place it in any other setting or circumstance. For example, suppose when you were younger, you had two teenage sons, 12 y. old Peter and 10 y. old Joseph. Suppose Peter committed a serious wrongful act. You were just about to punish him severely (however you understand "punishment") but he told you, "I know you are angry, Father, but Joseph has agreed to take my punishment in my place. So you can just take out your anger on him and let me off the hook. That would be all right with you, wouldn't it, Father? I know you have to punish someone for this evil act. It doesn't matter who. So just punish Joseph for it! He is completely willing to suffer in my place.That will give you the satisfaction you require."

So let's try your analogy, revised fit with your belief regarding the "atonement":

For example, suppose when you were younger, you had two sons, 12 y. old Peter and 10 y. old Joseph. Suppose Peter committed a serious wrongful act. You were just about to punish him severely (however you understand "punishment") but he told you, "I know you are angry, Father, but Joseph has agreed to be punished in my place which will enable me to be much better person. So you can just take out your anger on him and let me off the hook. That would be all right with you, wouldn't it, Father? I know someone has to be punished for this evil act. It doesn't matter who. So just punish Joseph for it! He is completely willing to take my punishment and that's the only way I'll get to be a better person.

I do not think your analogy is any more helpful than mine in determining the truth. I would be interested in your thoughts regarding the questions posed in my former post; I realize it may take some time and/or multiple posts.

Thanks for the interesting discussion!

Justification by faith seems to be plainly taught in the scriptures yet almost totally absent in Eastern thought.

[BrianK]

In no way do I believe that if we fall into sin, we immediately lose out. Nor do I believe that we must achieve a certain number of good works in order to be saved. However, I do believe that we must generally persevere in our submission to Christ. (Rom 2:6-11) We will lose out only if we undo what we initially did by God's grace — that is, if we take our lives back into our own hands and live them for ourselves with no concern for Christ or His will.

I failed to think of something at the time I posted, even though I talk about it a lot. That salvation doesn't just boil down to: Escaping going to hell. When you hear/read people giving their testimony regarding their salvation, it's hardly limited to "I'm saved from going to hell, end of story". The person usually goes into great length to list the sins and resulting pitfalls they were saved from. In many cases it was stuff they didn't even recognize as sin, before they were saved from it.

I know that when I sin, the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit will save me from it. Sometimes it happens immediately. Sometimes it takes a wile. But I know that if I strive for denouncing my will/desire/pride/laziness etc in a particular matter, I will be saved from it. Sometimes I feel like I'm losing to a sin or gaining little headway, but I keep remembering Philippians 1:6. And eventually the sin has been overcome and put behind.