Trinity.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[jriccitelli]

True, astronomy and physics is like looking at the Creators artwork, breathtaking and mind bending.

Jr, I'm sorry but I really don't know how to respond (Darin)

I want to know if you want know. I think God wants us to know. If a Rabbi/teacher says I will teach you truth, then says the truth is unknowable, what are we to believe, that truth is unknowable? Jesus said I am the truth. Jesus can’t say the truth will set you free if it is not knowable. Jesus can’t leave it unknowable if he says I am the truth. He said:
“So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free” (John 8:31-32) Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him” (John 14:6-7)

You had mentioned Jesus being the word. Do you believe Jesus is Gods word then (I think you said so)?
And by Gods word do you believe Gods word is the 'meaning and truth written' in the scriptures? (I'm not saying God or His word is a literal book, but the truth contained and written in the book)

[Paidion]

Did God not have a thought prior to begetting the Son?

There was no "before".

And wouldn't that be a prior event?

There were no prior events.

Or was there no God before?

There was no "before".

If there were events before the beginning of time, then the beginning of time was not the beginning of time.

[TheEditor]

And so Jesus went on to say to the Jews that had believed him: “If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.” They replied to him: “We are Abraham’s offspring and never have we been slaves to anybody. How is it you say, ‘YOU will become free’?” Jesus answered them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Every doer of sin is a slave of sin. Moreover, the slave does not remain in the household forever; the son remains forever. Therefore if the Son sets YOU free, YOU will be actually free. (John 8:31-36)

JR, this is not an academic head-knowledge being discussed in this passage. It is a recognition of Jesus as God's unique Son and a listening to his words for life and remaining in his words. The tack of "understanding" the nature of God--that salvation is predicated by some "epi-gnosis" of God in a nuts and bolts fashion has been tried--repeatedly I might add. All it has served to do is divide the Household into more and more minute divisions. If I rejected and left the Watchtower philosophy of "You know, the trinity is a God-dishonoring, confusing doctrine, and all those that believe in it are not on God's side, so we need to disabuse them of this idea", why in the world would I embrace the polar opposite notion?

Regards, Brenden.

[jriccitelli]

If I rejected and left the Watchtower philosophy of "You know, the trinity is a God-dishonoring, confusing doctrine…

Using the word confused is misleading, as anything complex and detailed is not the same as confusing. God is not a Potato and Electricity and Biology is not confusing it is complex. I believe it is a lie to teach that it is confusing, humans can make anything confusing, but Trinitarians are not confused over the nature of God or Jesus.
To honor God is to keep his Commandments; You shall have no other Gods, The Lord is One, You shall make no likeness, etc. is not confusing.

… Why in the world would I embrace the polar opposite notion? (above)

Because it is true: Jesus is Lord.

[TheEditor]

Wow JR, I don't know what to say. I will try however to make it neither confusing nor complex.

I wrote the following:

JR, this is not an academic head-knowledge being discussed in this passage. It is a recognition of Jesus as God's unique Son and a listening to his words for life and remaining in his words. The tack of "understanding" the nature of God--that salvation is predicated by some "epi-gnosis" of God in a nuts and bolts fashion has been tried--repeatedly I might add. All it has served to do is divide the Household into more and more minute divisions. If I rejected and left the Watchtower philosophy of "You know, the trinity is a God-dishonoring, confusing doctrine, and all those that believe in it are not on God's side, so we need to disabuse them of this idea", why in the world would I embrace the polar opposite notion?

From that you chose to cull:

If I rejected and left the Watchtower philosophy of "You know, the trinity is a God-dishonoring, confusing doctrine…

And then retort:

Using the word confused is misleading, as anything complex and detailed is not the same as confusing. God is not a Potato and Electricity and Biology is not confusing it is complex. I believe it is a lie to teach that it is confusing,

You do realize that I was using one frame of reference that I used to have so as to make a point, right? You also do realize that the term "confusing" can have an objective and a subjective definition, right?:

From Webster's Dictionary: Confuse--

: to make (someone) uncertain or unable to understand something
: to make (something) difficult to understand
: to mistakenly think that one person or thing is another person or thing
: to mistake (one person or thing) for another

You said it was a lie to teach it was confusing. Only a mind imbued with a strongly held dogma would maintain that the trinity is not "confusing". To make the bold claim:

humans can make anything confusing, but Trinitarians are not confused over the nature of God or Jesus.

is to show you have had very little dialogue with trinitarians above only the most surface proclamations like "Jesus is God". I used to relish hours and hours of such conversations, because, after all, I was in a "cult" and the Fundies I talked to wanted to save me, and of course, this was the only doctrine they really cared about. They didn't care much about the heirarchy and control of the WT Organization, because they wanted me to leave it and join their equally heirarchical and controlling Church--just as soon as we could dispense with this nasty Arianism.

Why in the world would I embrace the polar opposite notion?

Because it is true: Jesus is Lord.

That still doesnt answer the question, and I think you know that. Why else the head-in-the-sand answer?

Regards, Brenden.

[jriccitelli]

I will try however to make it neither confusing nor complex.

It’s very simple; Jesus is Lord, and He is the Son of God.
This by itself would identify Jesus as God.

And this is what Jesus, the Church and the New Testament taught. They made it very simple.
Like: 'Hear O Israel The Lord God is One' the credal affirmation of the Church was (and is) 'Jesus is Lord'.
For Moses, Abraham, all the Prophets and all of Israel taught and believed:
God is the One and Only God.
God is the One and Only Lord.
God is the One and Only King.
God is the One and Only Rock.
God is the One and Only Creator.
God is the One and Only Savior.
God is the One and Only Redeemer.
God alone is Righteous.
God alone is Good.
God alone is Holy.
God alone is Life.
God alone is True.
God alone is Love.
God alone is worthy.
God alone is Unchanging.
God alone can forgive sins.
God alone can receive worship.
God is The Light.
God is The Word.
God is The Light.
God is The Alpha and Omega
God is The Shepherd.
God is Omnipresent
God is Omnipotent
God is Omniscient
God is Wisdom
God is Holy
God is Just
God is Truth
God is The Judge.
God is The Name.
God is The Spirit.
God is The Glory.
God is The Husband of Israel.
God is The One who is coming.
God is The One who punishes.
God is the One who treads the wine.
God is His Own arm.
God is whom we must believe
God is whom we must trust
God is whom we must hope
God is whom we must put our faith.
God is whom we must pray to.
God is whom we must depend on.
God is whom we must serve.
God is whom we must boast.
God is the One who will be in us.
God is the One in whom we will dwell with.
God is the One in whom we will commune with.
God is the One who sanctifies us.

Yet all these things speak of Jesus Christ, you either believe that Jesus is the One described above, or you don’t believe. We believe what is written of God alone, or we don’t. Before I made up my mind, I didn’t know what to believe, but I wouldn’t say I was confused over what my choices were. Jesus was either all of the above, or he was not; "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?
‘But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord” … As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Joel 2:32, Romans 10, Note Joel is referring to God)

[TheEditor]

Hi JR,

I noticed that you basically ignored what I said, but that's okay.

When Philip was asked by Jesus "Do you not know me"? What was he responding to? Philip said, "Show us the Father"--He did not say "Show us God". If Jesus and the Father are two seperate persons, in what sense did Jesus mean this when he gave his answer? Trinitarians like to argue that Jesus said "If you've seen me you've seen God". But this is not what he said. He said "If you've seen me you've seen the Father". Because Jesus is the exact representation of the Father's very being. All of this can be affirmed without bringing one to trintitarianism. I'm not confused about trinitarianism. I just can't affirm it.

Regards, Brenden.

[jriccitelli]

Can you confirm everything Scripture says about God, and Jesus, without contradiction?
Belief in 'everything about God', is represented 'exactly in Jesus', would have to bring one to believe that Jesus is God.

I notied that you basically ignored what I said, but that's okay. (Brenden)

Sorry But i was trying not to post a long post. But I had written offline prior:

As a missionary I asked people if they believed in God? Some simply believed, others had a few objections and believed, and others raised all kinds of questions as to how could God allow this, and not do that, and what about dinosaurs etc. they can make it ‘seem’ very confusing and hard to believe in God. I believe people can refuse to believe, and thus call it hard and confusing (that's my experience and opinion).

... you have had very little dialogue with trinitarians above only the most surface proclamations like "Jesus is God" (Brenden)

As a missionary I would ask if people if they believed if Jesus was the Son of God? Some would simply believe, others raise questions, and others go into aggressive arguments as to why he was not, and that I was crazy to think so. So yes you have people who can believe, and others that make all kinds of arguments for why they don’t believe.
As a bible teacher I wanted to explain the Trinity, most said they already understood, some said they didn’t understand it, others thought it confusing, but all believed it (most all as I recall). I went on to explain it and I rarely had anyone argue it didn’t make sense. A couple people told me that even as young children they understood the drawing of a circle with two circles within was enough to explain it.

I did a search on ‘trinity and confused’, and that brought me to anti-Trinitarian sites and Islam sites. Not Christian sites. Confused seemed to be what the other sites were, not the Christian sites. I did a search on the Trinity, and or ‘Can you explain the Trinity?’ and here is one;
Our Answer: You and I live in a three-dimensional world. All physical objects have a certain height, width, and depth. One person can look like someone else, or behave like someone else, or even sound like someone else. But a person cannot actually be the same as another person. They are distinct individuals. God, however, lives without the limitations of a three-dimensional universe. He is spirit. And he is infinitely more complex than we are. That is why Jesus the Son can be different from the Father. And, yet the same.
It seems some are happy with that answer, or just believing God alone is Lord, and Jesus is Lord. And others are happy enough explaining God as three combined as one like the egg, or water, or lemonade, a triangle, etc. or that Christ is a Theophany/Christophany not unlike in the OT. Yet if you want to understand what ‘spirit and persons’ are ‘composed of’ it is going to get confusing sure, but then don’t you believe Jesus is in you? Is that confusing or is it because we can’t see invisible things?

But enough has been written in His Word to decide Who He is and who God is, and God is much more dogmatic and stubborn about this than me. I’m not ‘trying’ to be divisive or whatever, I appreciate thinking this through with you all, it helps my sorting through also, and being able to formulate an answer to all who ask, as many also ‘believe’ it is confusing.

(And you wrote; "Jesus is the exact representation of the Father's very being" would seem to affirm all we have said, Jesus and the Father are One Being)

[jriccitelli]

I have to answer, because of the charges that I ignore, or might ignore statements (sticking my head in the sand?). Yet i am answering because I want to get back to the one question i asked a thread ago. Who is your Lord; Jesus or God? But still;

I used to relish hours and hours of such conversations, because, after all, I was in a "cult" (Brenden)

I was in a cult too, and I know that the Deity of Christ, His nature and origin was the principle difference between truth and error. And an error over who He was resulted in everything in error, because all is founded on who Jesus is. I don’t know what your personal door conversations were, but Jehovah’s witnesses bring up the line in most of my conversations with them. I also often heard them use your line, much like the following statement when talking with a passerby, that: “How can there be so many denominations if they are all following the true God?” (or something like that). This is completely misleading, and comes from a misconception of why there are, and what the differences are between denominations. You were speaking as if all denominations divided over and had their own interpretation of the Trinity (Modalists aside). They had a hard time trapping the non-denominationalist, and I would respond to their statement with; I can walk into most every Protestant denomination in the world and agree with and fellowship with them in bible study. I do not divide over non-essentials. Denominations are mostly divided over secondary issues.