Trinity.

[Paidion]

It is not a concept, that: Jesus is Lord.

Why do you deem it necessary, over and over again to show to me scripturally that Jesus is Lord. I have never questioned that fact.

What you need to show me scripturally is that Jesus and the Father (and the Spirit, if you consider this to be a third divine Person) form a single, compound God.
You have not succeeded in doing so. You CANNOT succeed in doing so because it's not in the Bible—and it IS a concept that began to spread in the church for the first time in the fourth century.

I do congratulate you, however, for finding those two verses which, in translations seem to say that Jesus is "our great God and Savior" and "the true God." But actually, in examining the Greek, it is not necessarily Jesus who is the referent in either case, but the Father. I will explain what I mean in a later post.

If Paul were actually saying the Jesus is the true God, he would be contradicting Jesus who addressed the Father as the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

[Paidion]

(Titus 2:13) προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της-- δοξης του-- μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου
expecting-------the blessed---hope---and appearing of the glory of the great--- God- and Saviour-- of us Messiah Jesus

The question is, is this the appearing of the glory of one Person: "of the great God and Saviour of us, Messiah Jesus"?
Or is it the appearing of the glory of two Persons: "of the great God" and of the "Saviour of us, Messiah Jesus"?

According to some grammarians the fact that σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου (Saviour of us Messiah Jesus) doesn't have an article, indicates the first solution.
But is it necessarily so? Why is "of us" or "our" not included in some translations? Is it because the translators made it agree with what they already believed? However, I give them the benefit of the doubt. They may have thought they were following Greek grammar rules.

The ESV does not include it: "the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ..."
The NASB does not include it: " the appearing of the glory of our great god and savior, Christ Jesus..."
Notice that the NASB even strengthens the first position by placing a comma before "Christ Jesus..."

Rotherham DOES include it: "forthshining of the glory of the great God and our saviour Christ Jesus..."
The Revised Webster also includes it: "of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ..."
Murdoch also includes it: "the manifestation of the glory of the great God, and our life-giver, Jesus the Messiah..."

So we see that when the word "ημων" (of us, or "our") is translated, it is more clearly obvious that the appearing of the glory of two Persons, the Father and the Son is a possibility, and that therefore the phrase "the great God" may refer to the Father alone.

[jriccitelli]

I said, and the point was just that, both the persons are called God, and it is virtually impossible to discern which One is being referenced in many cases. And again, Paul and the Prophets did know who their Savior was, and that God was 'our' great Savior. The new Testament writers did not act unaware or seem confused about this, at all. There is no problem or contradiction for them, and there is no problem or contradiction for the Trinitarian.

Why do you deem it necessary, over and over again to show to me scripturally that Jesus is Lord...

You still have two Lords; unless Jesus and the Father are actually One God and One Lord, you will have two Lords, yet:
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (Deuteronomy 6)
'And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one' (Zech.14:9)
'The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one' (Mark 12:29)
'There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all' (Eph 4)
"... yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him" (1Cor 8:5)
“Trust in the LORD forever, for in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock" (Isaiah 26:4)
"But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King" (Jeremiah 10:10)

‘… None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory” (1Cor.2:7-8)
‘Who is the King of glory?
The LORD strong and mighty,
The LORD mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O gates,
And lift them up, O ancient doors,
That the King of glory may come in!
10 Who is this King of glory?
The LORD of hosts,
He is the King of glory’ (Psalm 24:7-10)

“Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God’ (you do remember this is used in reference to Christ in the NT, yet here it is referring to God)… 5 Then the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together… 10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with might, With His arm ruling for Him. Behold, His reward is with Him. (Is not Jesus God’s own arm, and is not Jesus coming with the reward, yet this is speaking of God in Isaiah)… 11 Like a shepherd He will tend His flock, In His arm He will gather the lambs, and carry them in His bosom; He will gently lead the nursing ewes’ (Is Jesus The Shepherd, or a shepherd, I guess you don’t think this speaks of Christ either)… Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has informed Him? (the reference by Paul in 1Corinth 2:16)… To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare with Him? 19 As for the idol, a craftsman casts it, a goldsmith plates it with gold… (Again the rhetorical question, no one is like God, and the warning of idols likened unto God)… 26 Lift up your eyes on high And see who has created these stars, The One who leads forth their host by number, He calls them all by name; Because of the greatness of His might and the strength of His power, Not one of them is missing’ (Again, the affirmation that God is the One who created, and note it is because of Gods greatness “Not one of them is missing”… 28 “Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth does not become weary or tired” (Isaiah 40)

There are hundreds of Christological passages in the OT: the NT writers refer to the same passages, and all of them are references to God in their context. I don’t believe Jesus or the NT writers were ‘completely’ or ‘slightly’ unaware they were using references, titles and contexts defining God and not know they were ascribing them to Jesus.

You keep quoting John 17:3, but in the same context (the two sentences before 17:3) in 17:1-2 Jesus speaks of himself three times in the third person, and such it is in vs.3. Jesus is referring to God as God, this does not mean Jesus cannot also be speaking of Himself. Jesus affirms His God is the True God, that's all. Jesus says in this same passage He is from this same God/that they understood/that He had Glory with God the Father before (indicating that He did not have that Glory at the moment of the prayer), and Jesus continues to stress that He and God are One (and We know God is One, and they must have understood that better than we do, and Jesus affirms that that He and God are 'actually' One, and he did so without resorting to one in purpose or something else).
This is also much like when Jesus says: "Why do you call me good? Only God is good" We know Jesus is good, but it is for us to consider, who then is Jesus, there is an element of the consideration, the examination, contemplation, of the incarnate humility Christs form represented. God has obviously lowered Christ to a humble state to test the heart, not announce 'who he was' with a bullhorn. You do see that the incarnation itself was the 'Son of God', and Creator of the Universe: born in a cattle trough, in poverty, as a carpenter..etc. It is a test, to see if we recognize 'who' this is.

[Paidion]

You still have two Lords; unless Jesus and the Father are actually One God and One Lord, you will have two Lords, yet:
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" (Deuteronomy 6)

Again you seem confused. I don't have two lords; I recognize two uses of the word "lord". Just as I don't have two Gods, but I recognize two uses of the word "God".

You cannot see that the LORD in the Deuteronomy passage is actually the tetragram, that is "YHWH" or with the vowels "Yahweh". The meaning is not "lord". The Hebrews translated it as "lord" because they wanted to avoid taking the name of Yahweh in vain. So they thought that if they didn't say his name at all, there would be no possibility of taking it in vain. So the Septugint substituted "κυριος" (lord) whenever they encountered "YHWH" in the Hebrew. In their quotes of the Old Testament, the New Testament writers also used "κυριος" for "YHWH". The MEANING of "YHWH" is not "lord". It means "the One who is and was and shall be."

Here is an example of the two uses of "lord", used by our Lord Jesus Himself:

But he said to them, “How can they say that the Messiah is David’s son? For David himself says in the Book of Psalms, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’ David thus calls him Lord, so how is he his son?” (Luke 20:41-44)

Actually David wrote "YHWH said to my Lord, etc." The Lord to whom YHWH spoke was his Son, the Messiah.


Paul wrote:

...for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1Cor 8:6)

What could be plainer? (1) There is one God, the Father, and (2) one Lord, Jesus Christ.
So I don't have two Lords. Like the apostle Paul and his fellow Christians, I have one God—the Father, and one Lord—Jesus Christ.

[jriccitelli]

Are you saying God is 'not' Lord then, or are they both Lord to you? (No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other)

The term Adonai was used of YHWH because He was their Lord, that was why they used the name, it was used in the place of Gods name, and it was used as His name (as were a number of other titles, never the less the titles given to God were clearly ascribed to God alone). The Israelites were to know no-other Lord, and YWEH was that One Lord. Emphasis on One. And Lord of earth, heaven, the Kingdom, of Salvation, of Hosts, and 'everything' is who the Lord is and of whom these verses speak of.
What is Jesus the Lord of, if the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth?
"I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned" (Luke 10:21)
Could Jesus be speaking of himself here? Since there is a comma here.

You were trying to discern who was God in Titus 2, Paul seems to know according to 1 Timothy 6:15
“… looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus’ (Titus 2)
"... until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which He will bring about at the proper time-- He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see' (1 Timothy 6:15)
Which Lord is coming in vs.14, and who is the 'Lord of Lords' in vs.15?

[Paidion]

Are you saying God is 'not' Lord then, or are they both Lord to you? (No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other)

No, I am not saying that God is not Lord.

The term Adonai was used of YHWH because He was their Lord, that was why they used the name.

Yes, you are correct, of course, in saying that the term "adonai" was applied to YHWH. But this term is not a name. It is a title—indicative of the Father's position. He is lord of the universe. But if Jesus is God doesn't it seem a little odd to you that He has a God? Does God have a God?

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17 ESV)

Jesus' words which you quoted,"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other,etc.," applies to two masters who are not in harmony with each other, and who may actually be enemies. But Jesus and his Father are united in love, character, purpose, etc. To be a servant of Jesus is to be a servant of the Father, not because they are the same Person, but because Jesus Himself is a servant of the Father. It's the same here on earth. If a Joe Bloe is subject to the chief servant of a king, who is himself subject to the king, then Joe Bloe is subject to the king (as well as to the chief servant).

[jriccitelli]

No, I am not saying that God is not Lord.

So you would say: God is my Lord 'and' Jesus is my Lord.
Are they both Lord of Heaven and all the earth / are they both the Lord of Glory / are they both Lord of Heavens armies and hosts / Lord of peace / Lord of the Sabbath / Lord of the living and the dead / are they both The Lord of Lords? (The bible has a context and commands defining His place as Lord, that is none are above Him, none other in His class, and no-others shall we have?)
Is God then Lord of Lords, or is Jesus Lord of Lords?
'For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED” (Romans 10:12-13, caps not mine)
Look at the of the content of Joel (below) that the book of Romans (above) is referring to in 10:13
'Thus you will know that I am in the midst of Israel, And that I am the LORD your God, And there is no other… 30 The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. 32 And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD, will be delivered’ (Joel 2:27-)
Who's name do 'you' call upon, YWEH or Jesus?

[jriccitelli]

But this term is not a name. It is a title—indicative of the Father's position. He is lord of the universe’ (Paidion)

And, so Jesus is 'not' Lord of the Universe?
Is Jesus then Lord only of the earth, or does this include the heavens?
"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy” (Exodus 20:11) ‘The mountains melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth’ (Psalm 97:5) Of old You founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands’ (Psalm 102:25 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands’ (Hebrews 1:10)
Who is the writer speaking of here in Hebrews, Eli, YHWH or Jesus?

In Romans 14, Paul quotes Isaiah 45 to establish who we will bow before and give account:
‘One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written: “AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.” 12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. (Romans 14:5-12)
Who will you be bowing before?

But if Jesus is God doesn't it seem a little odd to you that He has a God? Does God have a God? (Paidon)

Just draw a circle, in the circle write: Father Son Holy Spirit. Above the circle write God.
I do not define what God is, neither do I define what a person is, God does, and has explained Himself.

[Paidion]

I do not define what God is, neither do I define what a person is, God does, and has explained Himself.

Himself? Why not "Themselves", if God is a trinity. Who is this singular "Himself"?

[Paidion]

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED” (Romans 10:12-13, caps not mine)

If you are implying that this "Lord" is the Father, you are mistaken. Look at verse 14. This "Lord" refers to Jesus alone.

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?...

Paul is writing about the necessity of Jews as well as Greeks to be saved. Paul wrote, " And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?" But the Jews had certainly heard of Yahweh; they were well familiar with that name, and thus would have been able to call upon the name of the LORD (in the sense of "Yahweh"). But they didn't know Jesus as Lord. This was the name they had to call upon to be saved. I'm not sure why you underlined, "for the same Lord is Lord of all." Paul was simply emphasing that Jesus is the same Lord for everyone, both the Jews and the Greeks (or Gentiles). All must call upon HIS name in order to be saved.