“What is a good question to ask a Mormon?” by a mormon.

[jriccitelli]

Mkprr wrote; '…you have conveniently edited out the qualifying words “Some of the witnesses…”
I did not 'intentionally' omit the word 'some', it does make a difference, I did not plan that (I copied it in full on Aug25), anyways, I have read and reread and reread the JoD pages and have cannot conclude anything but what it says. I do not know who the young man was in the second sentence, but he is clearly of a different group than the group spoke of in the first sentence; "Some of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel". That is a 'complete' sentence. Besides, who else but some of the witnesses (purportedly) 'handled' the plates?

This statement is 'far' from being the whole case on the Mormon witnesses, and I am happy to omit it from the record, but this, and so many more odd and suspicious events surround the witnesses it becomes disingenuous to portray the 'witnesses' as spotless well dressed and manicured men as portrayed by so many LDS talks, and like the common drawing of the eight of them together in the woods looking down on a tree stump with the golden plates physically in front of them all, that never happened.

Mkprr wrote; '…they often times have to twist and distort things to make their point. I am hearing a similar tone in our discussion here'

You might know that the LDS church has had made major doctrinal changes; Polygamy, Priesthood, Rebaptism, etc. The 'History of the Church' is full of revisions, deletions, and omissions. Same for the 'History of Joseph Smith', the 'Doctrine and Covenants' (Book of Commandments), and numerous other LDS books, have both been subjected to omissions and revisions.
So who is it that is twisting and distorting things?

[jriccitelli]

I wrote more, but wanted to research more. I concur with Jepne on most, except that ' Mormons are told that there is no eternal life for them unless they are members of the Mormon church'
This is not LDS doctrine 'exactly', Mormons do not continue to 'exaltation' unless advancing in obedience and Temple sealing's etc. 'All' people will end up in terrestrial or telestial degrees in variance to understanding (except for 'sons of perdition'…).

Jepne wrote; 'a man who forced a binding doctrine of polygamy on this gullible people, in the name of God, as a cover for his taste for strange young flesh'
I usually leave the polygamy issue alone, because it is so 'obviously' wrong (justified adultery, adultery is; 'looking upon another woman') and man made that enough has been said, and since Mkprr was trying to define 'a good question' (among so many questions), never the less here is an interesting video;
'The Stories of the Wives of Joseph Smith'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LhzU4iXLxQ

The reality of Joseph asking numerous girls and women (some 17 yrs old) all within a few years (many within weeks and months of each other) all commonly while in secrecy, usually without Emma's knowledge, while some were married at the time, 'while' the husbands were sent on mission trips out of town by Joseph, etc. etc., not only Joseph, but many Mormon men 'obviously' were beginning to do the same. There is no justification for this. This is a crime.

And you are right Jepne, the Urim and Thummin, the spectacles, and possibly 'the seer stone' is in the possession of the 'church' offices, (among what else) why not show them?

[mkprr]

jriccitelli
I reread my response and I just wanted to apologize, I came off a lot more accusing than your post had warranted. It's easy to miss part of a quote like that I’m sure I’ve done it plenty of times myself. While I think it should always be pointed out so that it can be corrected, I didn’t mean to come off so hard nosed about it. Also, you and others have brought up a lot of other points that really deserve thorough discussion and I wouldn't want to miss the forest for the trees.

PapaJ
If you do move your response be sure to let us know where you move it to so we can follow it. And just fyi, while I like to think of myself as a kid too, I am going to be 30 next year. I know, I have the face of a 15 year old. I still get carded when I buy cooking alcohol. My hair is starting to thin though, once it falls out people might stop doing that.

Jepne
You said “The Church of Jesus Christ is organic, formed of a people who are knit together in love, led by the Spirit of God and of His Christ and transcends any such institutionalising and division. “ That was a GREAT line. This is exactly the kind of thing I was suggesting you all should talk to us about more often. If we LDS are wrong, and Joseph Smith is a fraud, it’s hard for us to even entertain the idea unless we know there is an alternative to the LDS Church that might have some merit to it. Attacks invoke fight or flight, when you share your reasons for believing what you believe it opens ears.

School just started for me again which means I won’t have a lot of spare time until Christmas break but I do appreciate the thoughtful feedback from you all and all of your questions deserve careful consideration. In the meantime, I was hoping that someone here might be able to point me to a good thorough discussion about the concept of the “organic” without a visible church institution. If you know of any debates on audio on the subject that would be preferable because I like to listen to podcasts and I like debates because you hear the other side as well but essays are great too. I’m not into reading long books at the moment because I have so much other stuff I have to read for school but if you know of anything good on the subject I want to know more. I have listened to the Tim Staples debate with Steve but they seemed to get so hung up on details in that one that they never really got to the meat of the subject. Maybe some time I’ll just have to call Steve on the radio and have him give me a good overview.

I just wanted to let you all know too that general conference, where the prophets and apostles of the LDS Church address the church around the world, is next weekend and can be viewed online at lds.org if anyone is interested. Also, if any of you live in or around Albany OR, let me know. It would be fun to meet some time.

[jriccitelli]

(I appreciate that you are busy and have to get back to studies, my school (for work) starts again soon also (electrical/electronics), I dread it because I would rather study scripture and apologetics. But since I am up early this Sunday I thought I would go back to the original thread question)

First I would say that 'Jesus' is the answer to 'all the good questions' to ask anybody, including Mormons, once you know the answer; you are a Christian.
It seems simplistic, but that is the amazing beauty (and good news) of Gods Gospel for humanity. The answer for us and the world is; Gods Son.
'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts. (Zech.4:6)

It is because the following 4 subjects are so important to both the Bible and Mormonism that the following are good questions.

What was the purpose of the Temple?
What was the purpose of the Priesthood?
What was the purpose of the Law?
What was the purpose of the Death of Jesus?

It is because of 'my' questions of Mormonism the forgoing biblical subjects became favorite topics of my study; the Temple, the Priesthood, the Law and the Atonement.

I have heard a number of testimonies of numerous scriptures, experiences, or events that have caused a Mormon to realize that trusting in Jesus is different than trusting in Mormonism. Ultimately the only thing we can truly in is Gods solemn word, that he said it, He meant it, and that He will keep His Word. Once you let go of everything else, you realize what a relief it is to know with confidence that Gods word is His promise, that this really is where our confidence is grounded, on the Rock, and that Jesus is really 'all' we need, and the answer to everything we need.

The problem with Mormonism is that my Mormon thinking will automatically think of the Mormon LDS Temple, Priesthood, and understanding of the Law and Atonement, but the Mormon elders I talk to know that I am 'not' asking about the Mormon Temple and Priesthood, but I am asking about the Original Jewish Biblical Temple Law and Priesthood.

The organic Church would be the Body of Jesus, all who 'truly' believe. Not every one who 'claims' to know Him, truly does know Him, so finding the organic body can be frustrating and difficult sometimes (It was frustrating for Jesus to), never the less finding other believers and fellowshipping is what Church truly is.
And I am going to go find some fellowship in just a few minutes, with friends I trust are in Christ at the little gathering down the street at a local church building. I enjoyed Church last night when some believers in Jesus came over to our house last night, and we had BBQ Koinonia in the backyard together with Jesus. The most important thing about His body is that 'you' are in His Body, in Him, with us, who believe.

[PapaJ]

I posted my answer to Homer over at http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 871#p54871

The new thread is under What is the truth of Christianity produced in America under ‹ Theology ‹ Ecclesiology

What is the truth of Christianity produced in America, of the Issues involved between the 1st and 2nd Great Awakenings; and the variations of religion identified with Christianity, produced by the 2nd Great Awakening?

[VeraKeisey]

Thanks for sharing this. That's pretty good.