Trinity.

[darinhouston]

As I believe CS Lewis urged, I think reading arguments from other generations is critical so we don't fall into patterns of familiarity which can keep us from thinking clearly.


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[dizerner]

Might be better to paste a link to a long article if possible.

[Paidion]

Before proceeding to ascertain the precise import of the passage, I shall give that translation of the words which I conceive to be the most natural and correct. “The Word was in the beginning, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

Hi Darin,
I wish to respecfully affirm that "God was the Word" is an incorrect translation, even though the Greek words are in that order.
As I stated in an earlier post, that particular word order (placing "God" directly before the verb) indicates that "God" is the kind of thing that the Word was. This is a particular technique that Koine Greek authors used for that purpose. Here are a couple of other examples:

"God is love" (1John 4:8,16). The word order is "God love is." Since "love" is placed directly before the verb, this indicates that "love" is the kind of thing that God is.

"Your word is truth." The word order is "Your word truth is." Since "truth is placed directly before the verb, this indicates that "truth" is the kind of thing that God's word is.

[darinhouston]

Might be better to paste a link to a long article if possible.

Just curious, but why is that? Links die. Pasted content remains. Normally, there would be copyright issues, but not this one.


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[dizerner]

You will perceive from this introduction the fitness with which the Evangelist introduces the word Logos in this proem, although it had not been used by the other Evangelists who wrote before the errors of Cerinthus.

All of this is complete and utter baseless speculation. We have a Logos already in the Scriptures John considered inspired. Why isn't that enough, why do we have to constantly reinterpret God's Word according to constant speculations to adjust it to mean what we want. This is such a common exegetical method with some I think they hardly blink twice. They assume you can't just "understand" Scripture to mean exactly what it says, but you have to find all this outside speculative material that influences and changes the basic and straightforward meaning of the text. If we start there, with the presupposition that God's Word can't just be understood contextually within itself, well, we have left already what it says about itself and thrown inspiration to the wind. There's really no way to argue against someone who constantly brings in whatever outside context they need to reinterpret what the Scripture says. It's a fundamental difference in foundational presuppositions.

[Jose]

JR,

When quoting someone, it is preferable that at least the entire sentence be used without cutting the end off which you did with me twice.. Here's one of the things I said in context.

"Trusting the Lord's leading is one of the hardest things to learn when the crowd is heading in a different direction than you are. I may not get things completely right, but I know that the Shepherd isn't a hireling, so I'll be ok. "

What I was saying is, that even if I don't have all my ducks in a row, I trust that I'll be taken care of by Jesus who is the true Shepherd and not just some hireling who doesn't care for the sheep.

What, in that statement, could you possibly object to? You responded by listing verses that show both Jesus and Yahweh to be shepherds, but that only proves that they are both shepherds.

What about Peter? He was a shepherd in charge of the church. Is he Yahweh too?

John 21:16 (NASB) He *said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He *said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He *said to him, "Shepherd My sheep."
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You quoted some more OT passages and then asked:

"Is this Jesus, or God? Don’t we recognize Christ is the one speaking? Aren’t these the words of the Lord, our God?" (Post #527)

I think that Hebrews 1:1-2 shows that God spoke through prophets in the OT which strongly implies that the Son did NOT speak in the past.

[Jose]

Let's examine the passage in Acts in detail. Paul is addessing the Israelites about two matters: the fact that (1) God begat Jesus and sent Him to earth, raising Him to be a witness to the Jews, who when they became his disciples then became witnesses themselves to their people and (2) that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Paidion,

I'm sorry, but I can't find a way to agree with your interpretation of this passage. It seems to me that the entire discourse (Acts13:26-41) is about the Gospel which was brought forth by the death and resurrection of Christ.

Regarding verse 34, you said:

"Then Paul says “And as for the fact that He raised Him from the dead...” That is, Paul is now talking about the resurrection, a different topic."

I don't see that Paul is introducing a new topic here. He began talking about resurrection earlier in verse 30 and continued with it straight through verse 37. The quote from Psalm 2 seems to be the first of three consecutive proof texts that Paul used to show the promises of God being fulfilled in Christ's resurrection.
___________________

Justin was a brave soul who gave his life for Christ but I think he may have carried some of his prior Platonic beliefs about God with him into his faith. I believe that in Proverbs, wisdom is being personified, and I don't believe it is referring to a pre-incarnate Jesus.
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I'm in agreement with you on John 17:3, 1 Cor 8:6, 1 Tim 2:5 and Eph 4:5,6. I think we've discussed John 1:1 and 1:18 before, but I don't interpret them the way you do.

Jose

[jriccitelli]

When quoting someone, it is preferable that at least the entire sentence be used without cutting the end off which you did with me twice.. Here's one of the things I said in context. (Jose)

I was only addressing the reference you made to ‘the Shepherd’. I assumed all of the posters here know what it is like to swim up stream, and we all assume we are ok. Technically I wrote the entire sentence, the previous sentence made no diff to the point I addressed. If we add too much to a quote it makes it hard to determine what part of it the other person is addressing. I do add the reference, so one can easily check. Thanks for doing the same.

[jriccitelli]

What, in that statement, could you possibly object to? You responded by listing verses that show both Jesus and Yahweh to be shepherds, but that only proves that they are both shepherds. (Jose, Feb 4)

I was agreeing with you, yet pointing out that we need to be sure 'who' our shepherd really is.

What about Peter? He was a shepherd in charge of the church. Is he Yahweh too? (Jose, Feb 4)

Is Peter the guardian of your soul? Is the shepherd of your church, also the Shepherd of Israel? There is a huge difference. This is the same mistake taken with so many of the other titles reserved for God, yet somehow argued that these titles apply to many individuals. The same can be said for The King, The Judge, The Lord, and God. There are many lords: but none are Lord of all, nor Lord of all men. There are kings: but not of all, or of all men. There are judges: but not of all men. There are creators and designers: but not of all the heavens.

King / Lord / God / Judge / Savior, of who, and of what? That is the point. God alone holds all the supreme titles and God alone will be King/ Lord/ Judge/ Savior/ Shepherd etc. ‘of all for ever, and for all ages to come’. Forever God will be King 'that' is what God has said. Yet all these titles apply to Jesus, do you believe this? Who is the LORD? There is Only One LORD, do you know His Name?

'I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land… I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD… ‘Therefore, I will deliver My flock, and they will no longer be a prey; and I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 "Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd. 24 "And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David will be prince among them; I the LORD have spoken’ (Ezekiel 34:13, 15, 23. See John 10:11-16) ‘I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms… "My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees” (Ezekiel 37:22, 24. See John 10:11 and Jeremiah 23:5 below concerning David) "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land’ (Jeremiah 23:5) ‘He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth’ (Micah 5:4) "Awake, sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones’ (Zechariah 13:7, see Matt 26:31) ‘Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered’ (Matt 26:31, see Zech 13:7 above) "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 "He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them… I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.’ (John 10:11-12, 16) ‘For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; He will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes’ (Rev 7:17) ‘And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 25 For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls’ (1Peter 2:24-25) ‘Nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory’ (1 peter 5:3-4) He blessed Joseph, and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, The God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day’ (Genesis 48:15) Save Your people and bless Your inheritance; Be their shepherd also, and carry them forever. Ps 28:9)

"Is this Jesus, or God? Don’t we recognize Christ is the one speaking? Aren’t these the words of the Lord, our God?" (JR Post #527) I think that Hebrews 1:1-2 shows that God spoke through prophets in the OT which strongly implies that the Son did NOT speak in the past. (Jose)

Correct, God spoke through the prophets, but these also mirror all the words of Christ. If Jesus is God, then it is God who spoke in the past. Everything only God could do, and promised to do, is also fulfilled, done and said in Christ.

Who guides us? Who Saves us? Who comforts us? Who teaches us? Who sustains us? Ans. Only One can do all this, and He is The LORD: “I will lead the blind by a way they do not know, in paths they do not know I will guide them. I will make darkness into light before them And rugged places into plains. These are the things I will do, and I will not leave them undone" (Isaiah 42:16) ‘To open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (Acts 26:18)
Who opened your eyes? Who leads us from darkness to light? Who is the Shepherd of your soul, and of the souls of all the believers in the world?

[Paidion]