Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Discuss topics raised by callers on the radio program
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darinhouston
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by darinhouston » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:35 am

For those who might criticize folks for not wanting to wear them since -- "hey, it could help, so why not do it?" I'll ask you -- two might help twice as much -- will you wear two? If not, why not?

steve7150
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by steve7150 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:45 am

For those who might criticize folks for not wanting to wear them since -- "hey, it could help, so why not do it?" I'll ask you -- two might help twice as much -- will you wear two? If not, why not?





Another one of God's laws! The Law of Diminishing Returns! Did you miss that verse?

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darinhouston
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by darinhouston » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:50 am

steve7150 wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:45 am
For those who might criticize folks for not wanting to wear them since -- "hey, it could help, so why not do it?" I'll ask you -- two might help twice as much -- will you wear two? If not, why not?





Another one of God's laws! The Law of Diminishing Returns! Did you miss that verse?
I'll buy that, but I would argue that the very same principle applies to the first mask. It has very low return for the cost to humanity and emotional well-being of a large segment of the population as well as the health of a society seeing brethren all around them metaphorically silenced and dehumanized. The argument to wear one is that even if it helps a little, one should wear it or else they hate their fellow man. Quite the opposite is true for most of us, but that argument is insufficient just as it is incrementally more apparent when applied to a second mask.

And how do you know it's diminishing returns? It may well be that the first mask is just as ineffective as many scientists and doctors suggest but possibly that second mask is what makes the difference. Or the third, etc.

The latest study I saw suggested that some of the most common mask materials actually make contagion worse -- more than the touching of the face, etc. that has been discussed, but by reducing the size of the particles as they pass through thus making them stay airborne longer and contributing more to contagion than an unmasked.

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Homer
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by Homer » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:50 pm

Well, well, well. Some of the posts here reinforce what I have been thinking for awhile. The terrible state of the USA regarding rampant spread and deaths is not the fault of the politicians, CDC, or others we like to blame but is cultural. The USA is highly individualistic, unlike countries of the East where the group is more important. We do not like to be told what to do and tend to challenge everything.

We have a granddaughter (with whom we are well pleased, Phi Beta Kappa and a very devout Christian) who has been teaching English in South Korea for more than one year. They have had a lock down and the people are highly compliant with mask wearing and social distancing. She feels very safe.

It has been claimed here that mask wearing actually makes things worse. If you compare the statistics that claim appears absurd:

Approximate population of US and South Korea:

USA 328 million, South Korea 52 million.

Covid-19 deaths:

USA 164,807, South Korea 305. Adjusted for population difference, South Korea would be 1,935)

We experience far more deaths (on average) every day than the cumulative total in South Korea since the pandemic began. Our death rate is about 85 times theirs! IMO the reason is found in the attitude and behavior of the people.

I will certainly agree masks are not convenient and can be uncomfortable. That is a small sacrifice.

Philippians 2:3
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,
Last edited by Homer on Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Paidion
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by Paidion » Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:35 pm

Thank you for those statistics, Homer.

As a mathematically inclined person, I was just wondering how you arrived at the adjusted South Korean deaths to be 1935.
From the numbers you provided, I got 2069 (which is not that much more) as follows:

USA deaths 164,807 USA population 328 million
SK deaths 328 SK population 52 million

328X (328/52) = 2069 (almost)
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by Homer » Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:52 pm

Hi Paidion,

Thanks for correcting my error. Looking at some numbers I had on a piece of scrap paper I see where I made my mistake. I used a population of 51.7 million, 305 deaths (as listed on one site) and I did this:

328 x (305/51.7) = 1935

The population of 51.7 was rounded to 52 and I confused the rounded USA population number (328) for the Korean death total number which according to the CDC is 305. Careless haste on my part, but the point made remains.

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darinhouston
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by darinhouston » Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:39 am

Homer, I don't have the studies at hand, but it's certainly not ABSURD to think that masks don't help. Epidemiologic studies of areas that have had strict cultural mask wearing have shown the opposite, and there are countries which have made the public policy decision not to recommend or require masks. Any correlation between mask wearing (aside from mass transit sort of situations) and spread of respiratory disease IN A POPULATION is low and some tend to show a negative correlation when studying populations. The only thing that can be honestly concluded it seems is that there is no good scientific finding one way or the other.

So, to suggest it's ABSURD and culturally insensitive and selfish to take this position is not fair.

I WISH masks would end this thing -- and I would be the first one to REQUIRE them to get back to normal. But, I honestly don't believe it and if it gives people a false security they tend to take actions that spread disease more.

From a cultural perspective, I can tell you from my local observations that Texans are as "independent" as any culture in America (maybe the world) - it breaks my heart to see such mindless compliance as I walk about, but there is practical if not universal total compliance with the mask ordinances. I haven't seen a face in public in months, and we've had one of the largest outbreaks during the peak of our mask compliance. We may argue against it, but we all wear them. Even I do - mostly out of Christian duty.

To blame culture isn't helpful.

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darinhouston
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by darinhouston » Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:29 am

Homer, speaking of culture, it could well be that a culture of influenza vaccination compliance could be one of the most highly correlative factors of contagion. The US military did a retrospective study just before CV-19 hit to determine whether flu vaccines would be prophylactic against contagion as a matter of troop readiness. What they found was that far from a prophylactic, there was an INCREASE in coronavirus contagion among the vaccinated population. It has been known for some time that flu vaccines can make you more likely to catch other "flu-like" diseases following the vaccine, particularly respiratory diseases. But, the study concluded it was worth it considering the protection for flu and similar viruses. What effect that has specifically on CV-19 isn't yet known, but it's suspect.

So, perhaps there are cultural aspects to this, but I don't think it's necessarily masks.

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Homer
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by Homer » Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:43 am

Hi Darin,

Seeing a demo like this (video less than a minute) leaves me wondering how masks could possibly not help prevent spread to others:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/app-health-s ... llness.cnn

My wife and I wear n95 masks as I had a quantity from my shop. They are not perfect or they would be designated n100. I feel pretty sure we both had Covid-19 in February before it was known to be around and we still are careful. We weren't wearing masks back then.
Epidemiologic studies of areas that have had strict cultural mask wearing have shown the opposite,
How are we to explain the low rate of infection in South Korea? The number of deaths there compared to here is astonishing. We have had mask wearing edicts here in Oregon but we see mass gatherings of people without masks. Do the studies you reference list the compliance rate? Our granddaughter says the compliance rate is very high in South Korea.

I can not imagine how a scientist as knowledgeable as Dr. Birx could "strongly recommend" mask wearing if it is ineffectual or harmful. And her being a Christian gives me even more confidence in what she says. I'm sure she is aware of all the studies and I can't believe she is ignorant; what could her motive be?

You mention flu vaccines. I see already 47% of people surveyed will not take the covid-19 vaccine when its available. I will be at the head of the line.

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darinhouston
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Re: Radio Program & Mask Wearing

Post by darinhouston » Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:04 am

I don't know how compliance is considered in the studies, but they're all inconclusive and way too many factors to consider to correlate to masks.

I've seen a number of "studies" like the CNN video you showed. Those aren't very helpful. They show visible droplets that are infinitely larger than the virus or the smallest particles that tend to remain airborne and contribute to contagion. In close quarters where someone might inadvertently cough or sneeze on someone (like a Doctor or hairdresser or that sort of thing) then it absolutely is useful. But, the particles that stay airborne for those "around" you or coming along behind you, all but the N95 (properly fitted) are all but useless and can screen the particles so that they aerosol in smaller droplet sizes to enhance their resident time as airborne contaminants.

Smoke is reasonably useful for visualization, but even smoke particles are quite large in comparison. Check out this video along those lines.

https://youtu.be/P_iQM5x9wF8

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