Praying out loud

[Guest]

Hello, Allyn,

Steve made a good point concerning the inability of any saint in heaven to be able to hear and respond to the countless prayers that may come Mary's way.

I would not see this as a problem, necessarily. If heaven is understood as a place outside of time, then there would be plenty of opportunity for Mary to handle her intercessory duties.

The arguement went that the catholics do not pray to Mary but ask Mary to intercede, in effect, to the Father and they are not really praying to Mary. My comment/question would be that in asking Mary to pray to the Father on their behalf, wouldn't this be the very same as praying to Mary...?

I'm not sure if this would qualify as "prayer" or not; the answer would depend upon one's definition of prayer. The communication would not necessarily connote worship or idolatry.

I am not fresh in my acquaintance with Catholic doctrine on the saints, but an appeal to Mary for intercession might be considered more or less parallel to asking one's bible study partner for prayer support - though Catholics probably often feel that Mary's efficacy is greater. This whole view may tie into the Catholic concept of the communion of saints, participated in by both those who are alive on earth and those who are with God in heaven.

...and in the very least conjouring up a spirit in order to communicate with God?

This touches upon what my concern would be, viz., the seeming prohibition against spiritism. I'm not sure how Catholics deal with this issue. Mary may not be considered to have ever died, in light of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary into heaven; however, calling upon other saints would not have the undergirding of the assumption dogma.

For my own part, I think the dead are flat dead in the grave, so they're not presently interceding for anybody.

Shalom,
Emmet

[Guest]

quote: This touches upon what my concern would be, viz., the seeming prohibition against spiritism. I'm not sure how Catholics deal with this issue. Mary may not be considered to have ever died, in light of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary into heaven; however, calling upon other saints would not have the undergirding of the assumption dogma.

For my own part, I think the dead are flat dead in the grave, so they're not presently interceding for anybody.

Emmet,
I have the same issue concerning praying to the dead saints. It for me feels to much like necromancy. As I see it they have had their day and now its night for them who have passed. The assumption of Mary brings on many concerns for me also e.g. if she didn't die does she still have motherly authority over Jesus? Catholics do call her the Queen of Heaven. Ok that went off topic a bit, I appologize for straying. I just feel that Jesus knows me and loves me intimately better than anyone else by far. He alone is the mediator between us and the Father, so why do any of us need a mediator between us and the Son?

God Bless,

Jim

[Guest]

Hello, Jim,

Thank you for your response .

The assumption of Mary brings on many concerns for me also e.g. if she didn't die does she still have motherly authority over Jesus? Catholics do call her the Queen of Heaven.

The issue of motherly authority would be interesting in an Ancient Near Eastern context. Alternately, one could question the extent to which parental authority ceases either before or even after the passing of a parent. Does a child become "liberated" upon their parent's death?

I would incline toward a child having both greater freedom as an adult than some might expect, and lesser freedom after the passing of their parent than some might expect. The Torah requires honor for one's parents; this is not slavery, but it does not expire with death, either.

I just feel that Jesus knows me and loves me intimately better than anyone else by far. He alone is the mediator between us and the Father, so why do any of us need a mediator between us and the Son?

As a Jewish person, I would empathize with this emphatically, but in the following form:

I just feel that God knows me and loves me intimately better than anyone else by far, so why do any of us need a mediator between us and him?

But regarding the concept of mediators in general: why then need any of us pray for anybody else? This, if God presumably loves the person we pray for far more than any of us do. But I think that God, ourselves, and others are intertwined in a complex web of interrelationships, and whereas God might allow something to befall an individual solely in light of their interpersonal relationship, I think that when we tug on our thread of the web, this may broaden the issue to emphasize additional matters of relationship. God and Susan might do just fine with her passing from cancer, perhaps, but her husband Carl's prayers may influence God to act in a way that he would otherwise forgo, in light of God's relationship with Carl.

In this light, we should ponder the ethics of our prayers pressing God to choose even a less desirable option within the parameters of his overall will. I don't have an answer to that one yet. Even relationship with God is give-and-take, and I don't know if that is necessarily bad.

Thoughts?

Shalom,
Emmet

P.S.: edited once to adjust the last sentence before the closing question.

[Guest]

In this light, we should ponder the ethics of our prayers pressing God to choose even a less desirable option within the parameters of his overall will. I don't have an answer to that one yet. Even relationship with God is give-and-take, and I don't know if that is necessarily bad.

Thoughts?

Emmet,
I agree praying for others is essential, for example intercessory prayer. Its all part of building relationships, showing your love and concern for others, it binds us closer as a body, as a family(Church) and it may just be Gods will for us to pray before he acts. As far as praying for God to bring a less desirable option within His will I would think it would determine your intent. Are you praying for God to bring them to thier knees to repentance or are you praying to God for vengeance or spite for example.

God Bless,

Jim