MOSt Christians Will NOT make it to Paradise?

[_Jim from covina]

The christian obligation to be met.....otherwise your in continual SIN.


(1) We have an obligation to take care of our basic needs along with our families. E.g. Food, clothing, shelter. This is self evident.

(2) We have an obligation to take care of our local "church" of those that are in need,assuming we are aware (and we should be, or made to be/shepherds responsibility).

Loving our neighbor is the fulfillment of the Law, according to jesus,i.e., The good samaritan, those who are in need.
1 jn 3:17-18. James 1, 2. Gal 6, etc.


(3) Then, once the needs of step 1 and 2 have been met, we can spend our $ on non-needs (which are not sin).........such as our desires, enjoyments, pleasures,i.e. harleys, that are not our primary vehicle (this is popular among calvary pastors), Plasma t.v.'s, boats, vacation homes, New vehicles vs. used vehicles, bigger houses vs. basic houses. and on and on.

(4) IT makes no moral difference if i help someone 1 mile away, or 10,000 miles away. Distance does not change the moral status nor the obligation required of the christian to help the person down the street or in Africa.

Therefore, (5), we are obligated to take care of the world wide "church" of those that are in need.

(6) Step 2 and Step 5 are morally equivalent.

(7) When the needs of step 2 and 5 have been met, Step 8 follows.

(8) We can spend our $ on non-needs (which are not sin/ referenced in step 3).



In this way we might see the fulfillment of 2 Corinthians 8:15 "He who
gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no
lack." (Acts 2 & 4).
But if we jump to Step 8 before taking care of Step 7, then we are not fulfilling the Greatest Commandment, LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSELVES, SO.....

THAT MEANS YOU ARE IN SIN.

IS this argument wrong??

[Guest]

Hi Jim,

First: It should be written "THAT MEANS YOU'RE IN SIN."
Second: Do you really believe that?

[_Jim from covina]

Thanks for the correction michelle.

Do you really believe that?

Dont most christians believe that if they dont obey the biblical teachings, then they are in sin?

jd

[Guest]

Thanks for the correction michelle.

Well now you fixed it and I just look mean. In my defense, there was a statement that used to have a misspelling, and was followed by the question: IS this wrong? Since I happen to be an elementary school teacher, I couldn't resist pointing it out.

Do you really believe that?

Dont most christians believe that if they dont obey the biblical teachings, then they are in sin?

Well, I'm not really sure what most Christians believe. I guess I can agree that disobeying biblical commands probably means you are in sin. Your argument seems to be that as long as there is a believer that is hungry, or a neighbor in need, I am in sin, and therefore lost, if I own anything more than the barest necessities because I'm failing to love my neighbor as myself (which is actually the second great commandment.) Who could be saved then? The world is huge and the needs are great; even if I sold everything I have, I don't think I'd make much of a dent. Besides, I think I'd fall into a legalistic morass. What if I own four pairs of jeans instead of three? I give away one pair, but would two pairs be enough and that third pair a luxury?

Does loving your neighbor mean meeting his needs? Is that it? I think you could meet your neighbor's needs without loving him. Actually, I think this happens all the time when our taxes are used to feed and house the poor. Paul said that profits me nothing (1 Cor. 13:3) Also, loving your neighbor must mean more than giving them money to meet their needs. I know this is trite, but that saying about 'teaching a man to fish...' comes to mind.

What about the woman that anointed Jesus with spikenard? Why didn't Jesus lecture her about loving her poor neighbors...like Judas did?

Here's what I think (but I'm open to instruction): We are supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves and in James it says: If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? So I think we are supposed to help each other. I think we are even supposed to look for ways to help, not just wait for someone to knock on the front door and plead for assistance. Our motive is love however, which, for me, only comes by the working of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is working in me, if I truly love, then how can I be not abiding in Christ, which is the only way not to be 'in sin?'

[Guest]

Michelle said:

Also, loving your neighbor must mean more than giving them money to meet their needs. I know this is trite, but that saying about 'teaching a man to fish...' comes to mind.

You make a great point Michelle.

I am an elder in a small independent church. (Hate the word "church", want to say assembly but it seems odd.) I have no desire to be an elder, did not seek it, but felt I was needed. We struggle with many issues regarding helping our poor brothers and sisters. Our church is helping multiple families almost continuously.

Today a particular family was discussed. We very recently helped them with a significant amount of cash. I was all for it. One elder related how he had been involved trying to counsel this party. It seems the person is rather selective in what is considered to be an acceptable job. Another person we help on a regular basis seems to make decisions regarding use of money that are not the best for someone in her condition.

It is not so easy, not so black and white, in deciding when to help. My own position is that we must help even when there is doubt; we must be willing to take a risk and be taken advantage of. Yet it is not certain you are doing the right thing.

My wife has great sympathy for the down and out. We encounter them often with their cardboard signs, but usually do not give them anything but support the local homeless shelter on a monthly basis instead. I've noticed a considerable number of people begging within easy walking distance of the shelter. Why are they begging with free food, clothing, and shelter nearby? Also help in finding work and starting over? Experts recommend never giving them money. Is it a sin not to, or a sin to give them money which is then used for alcohol and/or drugs? Are we enabling them?

We know there are many poor people in this world. We must be willing to help, but how? Experts have commented that in certain cases (in Africa, no less) aid is given on a regular basis and the recipients immediately cease their efforts and live on the dole. There has to be a way, as Michelle pointed out, to help them without destroying their initiative.

P.S. What kind of grade do I get on my spelling and grammar?

[Guest]

Jim, is this an issue you’re struggling with in your mind? I'm just wondering what the roots of your thinking is?

I think you should keep a couple of things in mind.

1. We are called into the beloved. You are loved by Christ and are his.

2. As a result, we are to love others as Christ loved us. This clearly involves generous giving....but not legalistic giving.

In other words, we should not spend our Christian lives focused on counting our resources and making sure we're giving just the right amount. I think Satan would be pleased to see us turn the Christian "Life" into nothing more than that. Your eyes would now be off of Jesus.

With Christ's love in you, you're compelled to give. In fact, it's a joy!!

Gal 5:1 "For freedom Christ has set us free"

[_Jim from covina]

HELLO ALL (michelle, homer, and another steve)
I have had comp. problems.........but here i am back.

Michelle........

Your argument seems to be that as long as there is a believer that is hungry, or a neighbor in need, I am in sin, and therefore lost,

YES, Yes. Great!!

if I own anything more than the barest necessities because I'm failing to love my neighbor as myself

I like how some ADD adjectives to make my argument look bad. I didnt say Barest, michelle, just basic necessitites,

The world is huge and the needs are great; even if I sold everything I have, I don't think I'd make much of a dent

2 points.
1) I didnt say sell everything you have.
2) Jesus did NOT say act ONLY if the the consequences are satisfied, he said ACT. You cant make your decisions based on utilitarian theory, rather jesus says do this, and so we are obligated to do so. (deontological).

I think you could meet your neighbor's needs without loving him.

OK.........are you doing it??

And finally michelle......

Our motive is love however, which, for me, only comes by the working of the Holy Spirit.

I am not sure, michelle, if you are speaking of the general objective motive for all christians, i.e. your use of "OUR", or the subjective, per your use of "FOR ME", so i will address both.

1) you motivation from love comes ONLY from the working by the holy spirit.......are you saying you would never have any motivation for helping anyone as a non-christian, i.e. not having the holy spirit?????

2) Is love the ONLY motivation for christians to be obedient. I know some that do it out of FEAR of sinning, and hell. Can not a christian just reason that it is good to help someone who is in need??


HOMER>.................

IT doesnt seem you have disagreed with any point. HAVE i converted you ?????


ANOTHER STEVE.................

Jim, is this an issue you’re struggling with in your mind? I'm just wondering what the roots of your thinking is?

YES. YES.
Absolutely struggling with this. I struggle with this because i wonder why so many Christians dont act like christians, dont obey the Christian and Biblical message to help those in need, and the poor, etc.........which is through the o.t. and the prophets especially, culminating in the n.t. WhY???


Steve, i didnt see you actually address any of my premises..........you just asserted that we should not be legalistic..................

So.............am i to assume you think its okay to live for youself?? Has our capitalistic/materialistic/consumeristic culture veiled you from Gods truth?

Has the poor leadership of the "american Church", that spend their money on extra vehicles, i.e harley davidsons, and extra homes, and lavish vacations, plasma t.v's confused you on the christian message???


I would love to hear back from all of you..........and newbees as well.
So many need to repent. hehehe

Love jimmmm

[Guest]

Hello Jim,

I like how some ADD adjectives to make my argument look bad. I didnt say Barest, michelle, just basic necessitites,

Tell me Jim; is Internet access and a computer a basic necessity?

Matthew 7:1-5
7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
7:2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
7:3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
7:4 "Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Robin

[_Jim from covina]

Hello robin. thanks for your reply.

Yes, a used computer and cheap internet service could be a basic necessity. For some, thats how one communicates, i.e. skype, etc. Some need a comp. for work or school, like me. So YES, Absolutely.

I would suggest that anything beyond that, is living beyond necessities, if its not needed for a particular purpose, such as school, work, etc. i.e. buying a NEW MAC, when its not needed.


Secondly, i must admit i am quite confused by your biblical verses.
I guess you are judging me, eh??

Thats too bad. ITS always unfortunate when someone throws out the ol'........"Dont judge me" cliche, rather than argue the substantive points.
But thats why "american christianity is what it is today.

I hope if you reply again, you might argue against my premises if one of them is wrong, rather than just assert i am judgmental. ITs quite funny, almost all the responses have focused on that, or on a legalism concept, which if true, then they would have to blame that on JESUS and the APOSTLES. BUT THEY"RE NOT. A bit funny, if it wasnt sad.

So comon everybody, show me where or why jesus is wrong.

The judmental legalistic jim.

[Guest]

Yes, a used computer and cheap internet service could be a basic necessity. For some, thats how one communicates, i.e. skype, etc. Some need a comp. for work or school, like me. So YES, Absolutely.

I would suggest that anything beyond that, is living beyond necessities, if its not needed for a particular purpose, such as school, work, etc. i.e. buying a NEW MAC, when its not needed.

That’s interesting; you seem to set the bar just above you own lifestyle. How convenient .

Secondly, i must admit i am quite confused by your biblical verses.
I guess you are judging me, eh??

Actually, I'm not judging you. You asked for a response and I gave it.

Thats too bad. ITS always unfortunate when someone throws out the ol'........"Dont judge me" cliche, rather than argue the substantive points.
But thats why "american christianity is what it is today.

I didn't say, "don't judge me", I quoted a Jesus' warning to those who are judgmental but have not yet examined themselves fully. It seems like it stuck a cord with you.

I hope if you reply again, you might argue against my premises if one of them is wrong, rather than just assert i am judgmental. ITs quite funny, almost all the responses have focused on that, or on a legalism concept, which if true, then they would have to blame that on JESUS and the APOSTLES. BUT THEY"RE NOT. A bit funny, if it wasnt sad.

If you point is that I'm going to hell because there are poor people in the world and I am not subjecting myself to utter poverty out of guilt, than the burden is on you to prove you case. By the way you will need to explain why God has always used people from all walks of life (rich and poor) to advance the Kingdom of God. I gave you a list of names earlier but you chose to ignore them, I assume because you are not able to answer.

Thank you,
Robin