MOSt Christians Will NOT make it to Paradise?

[Guest]

Hi Jim,

HELLO ALL (michelle, homer, and another steve)
I have had comp. problems.........but here i am back.

Glad to see you.

Michelle........

Quote:
Your argument seems to be that as long as there is a believer that is hungry, or a neighbor in need, I am in sin, and therefore lost,


YES, Yes. Great!!

Okay, then

Quote:
if I own anything more than the barest necessities because I'm failing to love my neighbor as myself


I like how some ADD adjectives to make my argument look bad. I didnt say Barest, michelle, just basic necessitites,

Okay sorry. Basic necessities. Does it really change the argument that much? And I wasn't trying to make your argument look bad, I was just trying to restate it to see if I understood it correctly. I guess I was off a little. What are basic necessities anyway? I counted today and I have 5 pairs of jeans and 7 other pairs of pants. Am I out of line?

Quote:
The world is huge and the needs are great; even if I sold everything I have, I don't think I'd make much of a dent


2 points.
1) I didnt say sell everything you have.

Well, what are you saying? Just don't buy any more stuff?

2) Jesus did NOT say act ONLY if the the consequences are satisfied, he said ACT. You cant make your decisions based on utilitarian theory, rather jesus says do this, and so we are obligated to do so. (deontological).

I don't think that I was arguing that we only act if the consequences are satisfied, and I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. I absolutely believe that we are obligated to do what Jesus told us to do.

Quote:
I think you could meet your neighbor's needs without loving him.


OK.........are you doing it??

Yes

And finally michelle......

Quote:
Our motive is love however, which, for me, only comes by the working of the Holy Spirit.


I am not sure, michelle, if you are speaking of the general objective motive for all christians, i.e. your use of "OUR", or the subjective, per your use of "FOR ME", so i will address both.

1) you motivation from love comes ONLY from the working by the holy spirit.......are you saying you would never have any motivation for helping anyone as a non-christian, i.e. not having the holy spirit?????

Well, I guess I might be moved by some measure of compassion, but I'm a pretty selfish gal. I think I probably only took care of family and friends.

2) Is love the ONLY motivation for christians to be obedient. I know some that do it out of FEAR of sinning, and hell. Can not a christian just reason that it is good to help someone who is in need??

Good like expedient, or just good like God is good? Fear doesn't really motivate me to action; it tends to move me to inaction. Do you act out of fear of sinning and hell?

...Has the poor leadership of the "american Church", that spend their money on extra vehicles, i.e harley davidsons, and extra homes, and lavish vacations, plasma t.v's confused you on the christian message???

I don't own any of those things -- am I ok? What about those 12 pairs of pants?

I would love to hear back from all of you..........and newbees as well.
So many need to repent. hehehe

Are you called to lead people into repentance? What makes you chuckle?

Your sister,
Michelle

[Guest]

Has the poor leadership of the "american Church", that spend their money on extra vehicles, i.e harley davidsons, and extra homes, and lavish vacations, plasma t.v's confused you on the christian message???

No, not at all. The biggest luxury our family has is what I'm typing on right now, our computer. Oh yea, I also have a lot of Christian books. I will usually look to see if our Public library has the book I'm interested in before I'll buy it though....so as not to be wasteful....but I don't get bent out of shape over it. God is more that able to make up for any faulty financial decision I make. Consider the answer Amaziah received after he had already paid for an army which he now didn't need:

2Ch 25:9 And Amaziah said to the man of God, "But what shall we do about the hundred talents that I have given to the army of Israel?" The man of God answered, "The LORD is able to give you much more than this."

I would personally rather invest in lives that need support. That decision is from the life of Christ in me. If I was not a Christian, believe me, my thinking would be completely elsewhere.

[Guest]

hello michelle......

Basic necessities. Does it really change the argument that much? And I wasn't trying to make your argument look bad, I was just trying to restate it to see if I understood it correctly. I guess I was off a little. What are basic necessities anyway? I counted today and I have 5 pairs of jeans and 7 other pairs of pants. Am I out of line

So this seems to be the main sticking point with people, and you, more or less. Its quite interesting actually. Instead of people arguing against one or more of my premises, showing its not logical, or arguing against the biblical texts......everyone is concerned with WHAT THEY CAN OWN. (not you michelle), but to answer one of your questions.......that what makes me laugh!

Its sad though. BUT..........Basic necessities...........

I think its a pretty common sense idea. What does one need to live? HOw many pants do you need??
HOw many cars do you need?
How many shoes do you need?
How many times a week can i spend lots of money going out?
Why cant i buy a plasma tv?
Why cant i spend lots of money on a nice vacation? I earned it.
HOW many.....................(fill in the blank)?
This can be applied to all kinds of things.

YOU TELL ME............what do you need to live??
And tell me what you need considering our christian obligation commanded by GOD, and those that are in need.

I think my argument is pretty straight forward.
I think its only difficult, because (a), people are blinded by our culture
(b) people dont know what the bible says
or
(c) people are selfish and dont want to obey what jesus and the apostles said.

ONe person thought they were being clever by my using a computer.
Just Silly. I didnt say to be an ascetic.

WHAT I AM SAYING IS THIS..............
Basic necessities definitely would rule out a christian "living beyond their means".

NOw where it is may be difficult is living beyond one's needs.
This i agree is a gray area, with no black or white line. So all this legalistic talk is mute, because i am not the one drawing the line.

SO.....with that being said...............

Where in my argument is a premise wrong?
I am just reiterating what jesus said FULFILLED the LAW.
I am just reiterating what john said to do for those in need, if you have anything.
I am just reiterating what paul said, that those who had gave to those who didnt.
2 Corinthians 8:15 "He who
gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no
lack." Just like in Acts 2 & 4.

I am quite surprised that this would even be controversial.

Comon michelle, you might be the only hope i have left here.




jd

[Guest]

Hey another steve........

I will usually look to see if our Public library has the book I'm interested in before I'll buy it though....so as not to be wasteful..

GREAT. thats exactly what i am talking about. If i watch a movie, i can get one there.........for FREE.

This is my point. NOt spending money on things if its not necessary, in that we CAN help those that need it.


If I was not a Christian, believe me, my thinking would be completely elsewhere.

THats why i am challenging the CHRISTIAN, because they have the OBLIGATION, per jesus and the apostles............

Alright steve.........i feel good now, i will be able to sleep tonight!!

jim

[Guest]

Jim,

You said:

I am quite surprised that this would even be controversial.

Comon michelle, you might be the only hope i have left here.

I think the way you have presented the subject has caused the controversy. You have not been very clear in what you are getting at while at the same time appear to be challenging the Christianity of others. You appear to have taken any question as a challenge to or disagreement with your position when I think many of them were asked in an attempt to understand you.

I too have a selfish nature and without The Word and The Spirit working on me probably would not do much.

HOMER>.................

IT doesnt seem you have disagreed with any point. HAVE i converted you ?????

What are you hoping to convert me to? You haven't changed my mind about anything; I'm well aware of all you have brought up. These issues have been discussed at length here on the forum in the past. I don't think anyone here is saying we are not required, as apprentices to Jesus, to help the poor.

My wife and I give to the poor every month, above and beyond support for our local assembly (there, I used that word!). We also give additional money for needs that come up. Do we give as much as we should and have as few possessions as we should? I doubt it, but we are growing.

I have for a long time been an advocate within our assembly for a more active role in helping the poor. You mention what individuals spend for material things; take a look at what churches do with money.
I think a balanced church will be active in making disciples and helping the poor. I think you will find the earliest Christians collectively giving to help the poor (2 Corinthians chapter eight).

P. S. We have lived beneath our means for at least 35 years, many years prior to following Jesus. Never thought of it as a particular virtue. Will Jesus give me credit for not having a Harley, boat, RV, etc. when I have no desire for those things, and then condemn an otherwise good man who, say, has one of them?

[Guest]

Jim,
The problem I have with you points of discussion is this.

P1 and P2 to are biblical. However, you make the Jump to part 3 without much biblical support. Acts 2 & 4 are describing the situation in Jerusalem in the first century; this is not a command to live our lives in this fashion. Though it is commendable, it is far from a commandment. I prefer to look at the entire bible, and then make a decision on how to live my life.

Let me give my reasons to believe that it is not as clear as you would hope it to be.

1 Timothy 6:17-19
6:17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.
6:18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
6:19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

Certainly it is not a sin to have wealth, however as Christians we are to use our wealth for His Kingdom.

Luke 19:8 Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much."

This would have been the perfect time for Jesus to speak up and tell Zacceus, that he must live on the basics until all needs were satisfied around the world. That is, if Jesus agreed with you.

Philemon Was a wealthy slave owner, and in Paul’s letter to him, it seems that Paul regarded him as a Christian.

2Corinthians 6-9:6-7
9:6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

This is a great example of how God wants us to give, and that is freely and cheerfully.

I have made no mention of my personal financial decisions here, because I feel strongly that giving should come from our desire to please God, and help our brothers and sisters in need. The way and amount I feel led to give by no means requires you or anyone else to do the same, however if the Holy Spirit directs you to give as you have proposed then you better do it.

Has the poor leadership of the "american Church", that spend their money on extra vehicles, i.e harley davidsons, and extra homes, and lavish vacations, plasma t.v's confused you on the christian message???

I no longer attend a traditional church because I felt that the assets they were provided by the congregation were misused and I could not support them any longer. So you may have the wrong impression of me.

Robin

[Guest]

Hi Jim,

YOU TELL ME............what do you need to live??
And tell me what you need considering our christian obligation commanded by GOD, and those that are in need.

I think my argument is pretty straight forward.
I think its only difficult, because (a), people are blinded by our culture
(b) people dont know what the bible says
or
(c) people are selfish and dont want to obey what jesus and the apostles said.

ONe person thought they were being clever by my using a computer.
Just Silly. I didnt say to be an ascetic.

You may think your argument is straight forward, but it confuses me from time to time. I had trouble pinning down exactly what you were trying to say. I got it wrong, apparently, in a few places.

WHAT I AM SAYING IS THIS..............
Basic necessities definitely would rule out a christian "living beyond their means".

OK, I'm good then.

NOw where it is may be difficult is living beyond one's needs.
This i agree is a gray area, with no black or white line. So all this legalistic talk is mute, because i am not the one drawing the line.

To be honest with you, the clothes thing does make me feel guilty sometimes (I have even more skirts and dresses than pants,) so maybe I should think that expense through a little more...

SO.....with that being said...............

Where in my argument is a premise wrong?
I am just reiterating what jesus said FULFILLED the LAW.
I am just reiterating what john said to do for those in need, if you have anything.
I am just reiterating what paul said, that those who had gave to those who didnt.
2 Corinthians 8:15 "He who
gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no
lack." Just like in Acts 2 & 4.

I am quite surprised that this would even be controversial.

I don't think any of the scriptures are controversial; it's the fact that you seemed to imply that we are going to hell that made me take notice.

Comon michelle, you might be the only hope i have left here.

That's just too sad for words.

[Guest]

Wasn't one of Jesus's best friends (lazarus) a rich guy?

TK

[Guest]

HEY Roblaine....

Check this out.

A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
Luk 18:19

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.
Luk 18:20

You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’*”
Luk 18:21

“All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.
Luk 18:22

When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Luk 18:23

When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth.
Luk 18:24

Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!
Luk 18:25

Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”


Why did you forget this one???
Partial, partial, partial..............
Verse wars dont help, do they??

Thats why i chose what FULFILLS the LAW.

P.S. some are giving personal examples of what they do, how they give, etc. I am not interested in what anyone does personally. I am wondering if my argument is valid. Not wondering what all specifically do with your money............ANd if i am preaching to the choir, as it seems some.....GREAT! This is for the majority of christians...........the typical american christian. THEY NEED TO REPENT.

p.s.s. and michelle, i used "PEOPLE GOING TO HELL" specifically to get people's attention, not because i think thats whats gonna happen. ( that is a salvation issue, which is a whole other topic). I did this because i know, even on this forum, that christians are apathetic, selfish, or dont know the wholistic view of the bible.

[Guest]

Hello Jim,

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters -- yes, even his own life -- he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26-27).

Here is another passage from Luke that is disturbing to most people. However I don't sujest the people go tell there family that they hate them, and if they don't they are in continual sin, therefore seperated from God.

"In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:33)

This verse is very impotant to the subject. We must give everthing we have to God, in order to be His deciple. That includes material, and spiritual things.

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it" (Matthew 13:44-46).

In these verses Matthew records Jesus' parable, and we hear that we should sell all we have to gain the kingdom of Heaven. However we know that the kindom of Heaven can not be bought with money, so Jesus must be refering to something spiritual, a forsaking of all in order to gain Heaven.

The rich youg ruler falls into the same catagory as these other verses. I think we must look at all the text and determine what it is that Jesus requires. Personally I don't think God requires every person to live as you have sujested, but rather to forsake all they have for God, and put there recourses to work for the kindom of God.

Luke 18:24-27
18:24 And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!
18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
18:26 And those who heard it said, "Who then can be saved?"
18:27 But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

Even the deciple knew that what Jesus was teaching was very difficult to understand, and achieve. So who can be saved? Anyone who has submitted their lives to God (Jesus), and is willing to forsake all to fallow Him.

Robin