MOSt Christians Will NOT make it to Paradise?

[Guest]

very well put Robin-- I agree.

TK

[Guest]

Hello robin.

So, i think if i have this right, you have said that you agree that we should help those in need, but you also think i am wrong for making it some kind of obligation, in that it becomes legalistic, (or something to that effect).

But all i am doing is stating what has been commanded us by jesus, in fulfilling the law.

And then you use verses to dual with me, and all i was doing was merely pointing out that there are verses contrary to what you were stating with your use of verses justifying the rich........which again i never argued against.

So, i say this again, because i think alot of what you are replying with are not addressing my argument.

So robin, since you disagree with me, which premise or premises do you find problems with, or is wrong?

I am sorry for being repetitive, but i just am not clear on what exactly is wrong with my argument, in that i havent seen a clear dispute of any premises with any argument against that particular point.
Rather, what i have seen is arguments of the sort like what you do with your money, and how i am legalistic or judgmental, or some verses that are supposed to cross out the verses that i used to justify my points.

Thanks again,
the simply following what jesus said person.

[Guest]

Jim wrote

"P.S. some are giving personal examples of what they do, how they give, etc. I am not interested in what anyone does personally."

In my case I was simply answering the following question you asked me.

"So.............am i to assume you think its okay to live for youself?? Has our capitalistic/materialistic/consumeristic culture veiled you from Gods truth?

Has the poor leadership of the "american Church", that spend their money on extra vehicles, i.e harley davidsons, and extra homes, and lavish vacations, plasma t.v's confused you on the christian message??? "

May I offer a comment on the following quote:

"and michelle, i used "PEOPLE GOING TO HELL" specifically to get people's attention, not because i think thats whats gonna happen. ( that is a salvation issue, which is a whole other topic)."

If you didn't clearly qualify yourself in the beginning, how did you expect people to understand you? I think everyone is responding to your assertion of salvation.

Perhaps saying something like "Hey, just trying to get your attention!!" would have been in order. If people genuinely understood you to be referring to a loss of salvation, then why would you be surprised to hear anyone use the word legalistic? I think we were trying to only help you not get bound by fear of losing your salvation over this matter.

because i know, even on this forum, that christians are apathetic, selfish, or dont know the wholistic view of the bible.

How do you know that?

[Guest]

Hi Jim,

I've got to agree with Steve F above. I appreciate the reminder about caring for the poor -- you've got me thinking about all those clothes. However, your presentation was shifting, confusing, and condescending, and I'm perplexed about why you felt the need to startle us with your approach. I'm even bewildered as to why you thought there were Christians here who need to hear it, and hear it on more than one thread. There may be, but how do you know? It doesn't seem that you know very many, if any, of us personally. Try having a dialog with us like brothers and sisters encouraging one another, instead of wild preaching with invitations to prove you wrong. This is really a nice group of people.

Hope you are enjoying the warm weather as much as I am,
Michelle

[Guest]

Thanks for the replies. ( i hate the heat)

I am not trying to remind anyone about the poor, or encourage anyone.

I am challenging what i perceive to be big fundamental flaw in christian living, based upon the teaching of scripture, and the fulfillment of the law.

Either my argument is right, and thus if one is living beyond their means and their needs, and they are in sin, or its false, in which i would like to know where it is wrong.

Thats all.

I would hope we could stay on point, Please.......

jd

[Guest]

Hi Jim,
If you insist on me pinning down one point of disagreement with you, then here it is.

(3) Then, once the needs of step 1 and 2 have been met, we can spend our $ on non-needs (which are not sin).........such as our desires, enjoyments, pleasures,i.e. harleys, that are not our primary vehicle (this is popular among calvary pastors), Plasma t.v.'s, boats, vacation homes, New vehicles vs. used vehicles, bigger houses vs. basic houses. and on and on.

I see no commandment to give up enjoyments, pleasures, and desires in order to fulfill the law. This however has been considered scriptural in the past, and the desert fathers were known for living very simple lives and forsaking anything that goes beyond the basic necessities. Today monks carry-on the same types of traditions. But overall, what does this actually accomplish? I'm sure that you are aware that Americans, (specifically Christian Americans) are among the most generous in the world. Can we give more and make do with less, of course. this could be said about almost anyone. The key is to continue to be guided by the Holy Spirit, and the scriptures and not set legalistic standards as our guide, so that we don't fall into the trap of trying to buy our way into heaven.

Thank you,
Robin

[Guest]

Thanks for the replies. ( i hate the heat)

Oh, sorry then.

I am not trying to remind anyone about the poor, or encourage anyone.

Why not?

I am challenging what i perceive to be big fundamental flaw in christian living, based upon the teaching of scripture, and the fulfillment of the law.

Either my argument is right, and thus if one is living beyond their means and their needs, and they are in sin, or its false, in which i would like to know where it is wrong.

Thats all.

I would hope we could stay on point, Please.......

jd

Well, your argument is weak because it sets up a false dichotomy: that either a Christian lives with the barest, sorry, most basic needs or he is in sin and lost. There is no command to live within your needs, there is no command to make sure the whole world eats, and there is no command to own nothing more than your basic needs. Scripturally it fails to take into account the exemplar for loving your neighbor that Jesus provided: the Good Samaritan. He took care of a helpless Jew he found in his path, and then went on about his business. The story says nothing about him living within his needs. Actually he had to have something extra in order to pay for the medical needs of the Jew.

I hate this because it seems like I'm arguing for apathy and hardness of heart. I'm not. I don't live beyond my means and not far beyond my needs. I give to organizations and individuals who help the poor. I do not do that out of fear of being sent to hell, I do it out of love for my savior. Why do you do it?

MM

[Guest]

I have 2 cents to throw in on this (any more than 2 cents might be stretching my budget!).

70% of Americans do live beyond their means. They live paycheck-to-paycheck and have become enslaved to debt. Prov. 22:7 says that "the borrower is slave to the lender." Romans 13:8-10 says, "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." I probably receive a dozen credit card offers each week, which I gleefully shred. Consumer debt in our culture has become the norm, but it is sin and oppression and a blight. Christians ought not to be participating in it.

There were wealthy Christians in the early church and God has mightily used believers who possessed financial means throughout history. I think of Lydia, or Count Zinzendorf, or William Wilberforce, or, as Michelle mentioned, the Good Samaritan who was certainly a man of means in that culture. Wealth, in and of itself, is not sin. Of course, the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. A poor man can be as miserly and in love with money as a rich man though. It's the heart, not the externals.

Our consumer debt culture, though, is sinful, because it enslaves people.
As one wise man has said, "We spend money we don't have, to buy things we don't need, to impress people we don't like." I don't think the way to remedy the situation though is to point fingers and cast blame at those who are living beyond their means. The remedy is to patiently and lovingly show a more excellent way, through education and encouragement. Here's a guy that I think is doing a good job of that: http://www.daveramsey.com

[Guest]

i have said on another thread somewhere that times are very different now than they were in bible times. back then, homes didnt cost a fortune; the average person probably built their own out of materials available. today (unless you are rich) it is almost impossible to buy a home w/o a mortgage. the same goes for a reliable vehicle.

it seems the average christian family in america is likely living in a house, with a mortgage, of perhaps 3 or 4 bedrooms(if they have kids). they have at least one car, likely 2. they likely dont have tons of money left after paying bills and giving to their church. they may have some credit card debt, but perhaps not a huge amount. they may have a "luxury" like a boat or jet skis, but possibly not.

What then is the "prescription" for this average christian family to get in line with christian principles? pay off their mortgage? i am sure they would love to-- but they dont have the cash. pay off their credit card debt?-- of course, they are working on it as they are able. should they sell "luxuries" to pay off the debt? perhaps. should they downsize to a two bedroom house or trailer in a bad part of town?

i think what is needed here are practical solutions, versus simply condemning the average american christian. but first, you would need to convince the average american christian that their moderate lifestyle is a horrible offense in the eyes of God-- good luck, since most pastors live like the average american christian.

TK

[Guest]

Perhaps, as those who are wealthy in comparison to most of the world, we should allow ourselves to be more uncomfortable with our finances than to try to justify how we live and spend.

I think there's a healthy balance somewhere in between.

I say this to myself as well.

Dave