The Lord's Supper

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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:44 am

Liseux wrote:
From the beginning of the Church, the Eucharist has been viewed and offered as the true Body and Blood of Jesus. No writings exist until the year 800 which dispute or claim that the Eucharist is purely symbolic.
Consider this statement by Irenaeus, circa 180:

"These slaves had nothing to say that would meet the wishes of their tormentors, except that they had heard from their masters that the divine communion was the body and blood of Christ. Now, imagining that it was actually flesh and blood, those slaves gave to their inquisitors answer to that effect."

And by Clement of Alexandria, circa 195:

"Elsewhere the Lord, in the Gospel according to John, brought this out by symbols, when He said: 'Eat my flesh and drink my blood', describing distinctly by metaphor the drinkable properties of faith."
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_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:33 am

Hi, I have not had time to read this thread so if i'm repeating anything i apologize.
Since Jesus is in effect taking the place of the Passover Lamb the Lord's Supper is related to the Passover dinner i would think.
At the Passover dinner there is no Rabbi or clergy present , only the spiritual leader of the house conducts it, therefore since Jesus did not make a point of changing the procedure as far as i know , i think it can be conducted by non clergy believers.
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:42 pm

Greetings,
STEVE7150 wrote:Hi, I have not had time to read this thread so if i'm repeating anything i apologize.
Since Jesus is in effect taking the place of the Passover Lamb the Lord's Supper is related to the Passover dinner i would think.
At the Passover dinner there is no Rabbi or clergy present , only the spiritual leader of the house conducts it, therefore since Jesus did not make a point of changing the procedure as far as i know , i think it can be conducted by non clergy believers.
I believe the Last Supper was held before the Passover on "the Day of Preparation."

Excerpted from this article by Bryan T. Huie:
Was The "Last Supper" The Passover Meal?
Bryan Huie wrote:Let's review the beginning of John's account of the "last supper," which is found in chapter 13 of his Gospel:

JOHN 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He should depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. 2 And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him, 3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God, and was going back to God, 4 rose from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself about. 5 Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. (NASU)

John shows that the "last supper" took place on the same night Judas Iscariot betrayed Christ (John 13:21-30). The first verse plainly states that this was "before the feast of the Passover," which lasts for seven days (from Nisan 15 through Nisan 21). John is obviously referring to the same night described by the other three Gospel writers (Matt. 26; Mark 14; Luke 22). John goes on to reiterate several times that these events took place before Passover. Clearly, the Passover meal traditionally eaten on the evening of Nisan 15 had not yet been observed.

JOHN 13:21 When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me. 26 . . . It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it." And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly." 28 But no one at the table knew for what reason He said this to him. 29 For some thought, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus had said to him, "Buy those things we need for the Feast," or that he should give something to the poor. 30 Having received the piece of bread, he then went out immediately. And it was night. (NKJV)

JOHN 18:28 Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium, and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium, lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover. (NKJV)

JOHN 19:14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he [Pilate] said to the Jews, "Behold your King!" (NKJV)

JOHN 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. (NKJV)

JOHN 19:42 So there they laid Jesus, because of the Jews' Preparation Day, for the tomb was nearby. (NKJV)

The Jews reckoned days from sunset to sunset. As you can see, John points out repeatedly that the "last supper," the betrayal by Judas, and Yeshua's trial and crucifixion all occurred before the Passover, on the Preparation Day.
There's a lot of good information in this article. Btw, do not agree with everything Bryan Huie believes (on all details). But I think he is correct about this. He also convinced me, from the Bible, that Jesus was raised on a Sabbath (which for us, in our reckoning of time, was on a "Saturday night"..."during the night time, early Sunday morning").

gtg, thanx,
Rick
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__id_1783
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Post by __id_1783 » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:38 pm

Hello Homer,

When dealing with the Eucharist and the Early Church Fathers, one can often quote snippets, which I do myself, that might seem to support a particular position.

The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. Yet it is also a memorial of His death. As a memorial, some figurative language about the Eucharist will come about. Also, as spiritual food, one can also speak metaphorically about the Eucharist. I believe that this is what St. Clement does. The both/and language does not negate the literal existence of the Body and Blood of Jesus.

Symbols have no power, or that would be majic, and I know you don't espouse that!

As for the Irenaeus quote, I think that it's perfectly fine for Ireneaus to be speaking this way and still have in mind the Body and Blood of Christ. If I am imagining to be driving down the road, I can quite easily seen to be doing so. The "imagining" part is rhetorical, and I think doesn't prove anything.

I found these quote on realpresence.org which demonstrate that the Eucharist was thought of as truly the Body and Blood of Jesus by Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria, and shed a bit more light on the subject:
[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies."

Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

"So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God's gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ's Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, 'For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones' (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of 'spiritual' and 'invisible' man, 'for a spirit does not have flesh an bones' (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and 'the grain of wheat falls into the earth' (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ."

-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely
According to Irenaeus, and scripture, we receive eternal life from this Eucharist. Symbols or pure metaphors have no power such as this! Symbols do not nourish our flesh, thanks be to God.

And dealing with Clement:
"The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word.",

-"The Instructor of the Children". [2,2,19,4] ante 202 A.D.,
According to Clement, we are sanctified (made holy) in body and soul by the Eucharist, and united mystically to God. This is what the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have taught now for 2000 years. Symbols do not make one holy.

If Clement referred to the "drinkable properties of faith" this does not negate his believing that the Eucharist ALSO sanctifies us. I have seen Augustine also refer to the Eucharist metaphorically, yet he truly believed in the Eucharist as the literal body of Christ.

I can refer to my husband metaphorically as well- "Myne owne beloved husband is a sanctifying prayer sent from above."

This describing of my husband metaphorically does not negate that he really is flesh and blood. Honest! He is real flesh and blood.

God bless,

Liseux
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__id_1783
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Post by __id_1783 » Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:42 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:Hi, I have not had time to read this thread so if i'm repeating anything i apologize.
Since Jesus is in effect taking the place of the Passover Lamb the Lord's Supper is related to the Passover dinner i would think.
At the Passover dinner there is no Rabbi or clergy present , only the spiritual leader of the house conducts it, therefore since Jesus did not make a point of changing the procedure as far as i know , i think it can be conducted by non clergy believers.
Hello Steve,

The Passover dinner is indeed a prefigurement of the Eucharist.

But at the Last Supper, Jesus told the apostles, "Do this in memory of me."
He didn't tell all of the disciples this, nor did he tell the general public while he was teaching on various mountain tops. That would have really opened it up to anyone!

He said "Do this in memory of me" to His chosen 12.

When one of these apostles dies or departs (recall Mattias replacing Judas), he is replaced by the laying on of hands described in 1 Timothy 3 and 4.


God bless,

Liseux
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