The Narrow Path Ministries

I have a friend who founded a rather large successful national business which is being investigated for accounting irregularities.

Knowing him well and having experienced such an investigation in the post-Enron government intrusions into my own employer's business, I have no doubt that any laws were willfully or knowingly violated.

However, there is a good chance that some public notoriety will surround the investigation and there will at least be some degree of public suggestion of impropriety.

He is a VERY gifted bible teacher and is on the "teaching roles" of a prominent church. He has decided to "step down" from an official teaching role until things are finished so as not to bring "disrepute" on his church.

Here's my question -- I personally think this is why it is unwise to elevate "teachers" to such a position that this would be necessary, but more than that I have a problem allowing the "great accuser" to interfere with the free exercise of the gifts within the body of Christ. I want to explain why I think he should reconsider and why we shouldn't be as concerned over disrepute of the "church" as we should be disrepute of "Christ." What's next? Deny Christ so as not to bring reproach against Him? I would feel differently if he had gotten "caught" doing something he knew to have been illegal (though only to the extent he wasn't now repentant).

I would appreciate any thoughts you guys have before I approach him and share my thoughts. He really has an extraordinary gift, though I don't always agree with his doctrine (he's Reformed).

Darin, you sound pretty upset about this! Was he asked to step down, or is it his decision alone? Perhaps his decision is not totally because of bring disrepute to the church, perhaps he just needs to concentrate on the investigation and planning for what to do if the worst happens.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "elevating "teachers" to the position that this would be necessary." How would you avoid that? James 3:1 says that teachers are held to a stricter judgment:

• My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

So, wouldn't that sort of be elevating them?

You imply that your friend is allowing the "great accuser" to interfere with the free exercise of the gifts within the body of Christ. I think you mean that Satan is behind this and your friend is allowing him to thwart the work of the Holy Spirit. Do you really think that is happening? Do you really think Satan will get away with that?

I think you got a little carried away when you ranted about denying Christ. I don't see how your friend's leave of absence is the first step on a slippery slope to apostasy. And, by the way, don't you think that if you bring disrepute to the Church, you are bringing reproach to Christ? We are His body, after all.

I feel really sorry for what your friend is going through. I cannot imagine worrying that I might be charged with a crime. It sounds as if his life is crumbling around him. I'm sure that God will bring good from this situation; He always does. I actually think he is doing a wise and prudent thing in stepping down right now.

Those are my thoughts...sorry that I disagree with you. By the way, look at your second paragraph. I had to read it over and over because it sounded like you didn't doubt that laws had been broken instead of doubting his guilt.

Perhaps his decision is not totally because of bring disrepute to the church, perhaps he just needs to concentrate on the investigation and planning for what to do if the worst happens.

That would be my personal concern, but does not seem to be his reaction to things. He seems to be handling it pretty well. Bear in mind, it's probably not personal criminal liability he's concerned about, but instead his company as an entity (usually dealt with by fines).

I'm not really sure what you mean by "elevating "teachers" to the position that this would be necessary." How would you avoid that? James 3:1 says that teachers are held to a stricter judgment:

My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

So, wouldn't that sort of be elevating them?

I believe the stricter judgment here is concerned with accountability before God for the things you teach and the actions of others resulting from that teaching (or even hypocrisy) and not some suggestion of accountability before man in an "elevated" role. I don't think God would hold a teacher accountable for false but the appearance of hypocrisy.

You imply that your friend is allowing the "great accuser" to interfere with the free exercise of the gifts within the body of Christ. I think you mean that Satan is behind this and your friend is allowing him to thwart the work of the Holy Spirit. Do you really think that is happening? Do you really think Satan will get away with that?

I don't know whether Satan will get away with it, but I do believe he sometimes does get away with such things. I believe people are held back from ministry at times from guilt and fear -- so, Satan seems to be getting away with such things at times.

I think you got a little carried away when you ranted about denying Christ. I don't see how your friend's leave of absence is the first step on a slippery slope to apostasy. And, by the way, don't you think that if you bring disrepute to the Church, you are bringing reproach to Christ? We are His body, after all.

Yes, I did get a little carried away -- I don't think my friend is on a slippery slope, but logically, isn't it a related concern?

I appreciate your perspective -- I hope to receive others.

darin-houston wrote:I believe the stricter judgment here is concerned with accountability before God for the things you teach and the actions of others resulting from that teaching (or even hypocrisy) and not some suggestion of accountability before man in an "elevated" role. I don't think God would hold a teacher accountable for false but the appearance of hypocrisy.

Just to elaborate on this -- I was listening to TNP tonight and a caller, Eli, reminded Steve of his responsibility as a teacher for the doctrines he teaches. This is an excellent example of my point here -- Steve does not hold any structural position as teacher within an organization and yet this verse almost certainly applies to him. If Steve had a side-business and it was being investigated for some accounting irregularity that Steve had no personal involvement in, do you think he would step down from his radio show?

And, by the way, don't you think that if you bring disrepute to the Church, you are bringing reproach to Christ? We are His body, after all.

In a way, yes, but the difference here is the reputation of a particular church organization is not the same thing as the church corporate.

Consider this -- if the church were in a time of intense persecution from the government, would not the government likely be bringing false allegations against Christians ? What would you recommend teachers who are targeted in such a way do then ?

Just short of the "slippery slope," what if my friend's business uses an Ichthus (fish) in his company logo and openly promotes his business as a "Christian" business (he does, in fact) ? Would he need to change his company logo ?

Bear in mind, though this is not a public company, this is not a small business (the company is national and the company name and logo are on the front of a high-rise in a large city). I have no indication my friend is being investigated, personally, for any personal wrongdoing or that he "needs" to step down for personal reasons or the like. As near as I can tell, this is to protect the name of the local church (I'm not sure whether the church actually asked him to step down).

darin-houston wrote:I appreciate your perspective -- I hope to receive others.

I hope you receive input from others as well. I also hope you don't mind me using your thread to write out my thoughts. I've been thinking about this all day and I want to write down my thoughts so I can stop thinking them. I appreciate very much that you've responded to my initial thoughts.

I believe the stricter judgment here is concerned with accountability before God for the things you teach and the actions of others resulting from that teaching (or even hypocrisy) and not some suggestion of accountability before man in an "elevated" role. I don't think God would hold a teacher accountable for false but the appearance of hypocrisy.

I don't think God would hold a teacher accountable for false accusations of hypocrisy, nor false accusations of any other kind. I'm just saying that teachers do have an exalted position, not because they are more favored by God, nor because they are more Godly; but because teachers have so much responsibility, which is why God holds them to a stricter judgment for what they teach.

Just to elaborate on this -- I was listening to TNP tonight and a caller, Eli, reminded Steve of his responsibility as a teacher for the doctrines he teaches. This is an excellent example of my point here -- Steve does not hold any structural position as teacher within an organization and yet this verse almost certainly applies to him. If Steve had a side-business and it was being investigated for some accounting irregularity that Steve had no personal involvement in, do you think he would step down from his radio show?

I'd be curious to know as well. I have a feeling, however, that you and I have different opinions as to how Steve would answer your hypothetical. Wanna make a bet? I could be really wrong, I often am.

I wrote:And, by the way, don't you think that if you bring disrepute to the Church, you are bringing reproach to Christ? We are His body, after all.

you wrote:In a way, yes, but the difference here is the reputation of a particular church organization is not the same thing as the church corporate.

Really? You don't experience any backlash from the pedophile Catholic priests? Ok, maybe not. How about homosexual, mega-church, evangelical leaders? How about prosperity teachers busted for accounting fraud? Have you ever had someone roll their eyes when you say that you're a Christian? Have you ever had someone drill you on one of those scandals? I have.

Consider this -- if the church were in a time of intense persecution from the government, would not the government likely be bringing false allegations against Christians ? What would you recommend teachers who are targeted in such a way do then ?

I'm not sure in what form you mean this persecution is taking place. Let's say that a government is persecuting the Church surreptitiously by bringing drummed up charges against the teachers. In order for that to work, the charges would need to stick, right? Otherwise the whole campaign would fall apart rather quickly, I believe. I think the falsely accused teachers would then be in jail, probably teaching other inmates, and perhaps the guards, and maybe sending letters out to reassure their loved ones and friends on the outside.

Really, however, I don't think that a state that decides to persecute Christians usually goes to such elaborate methods. They just make it illegal to meet as Christians and arrest those that do. In that case the teachers would, well, probably teach other inmates, and perhaps the guards, and maybe sending letters out to reassure their loved ones and friends on the outside.

Just short of the "slippery slope," what if my friend's business uses an Ichthus (fish) in his company logo and openly promotes his business as a "Christian" business (he does, in fact) ? Would he need to change his company logo ?

Bear in mind, though this is not a public company, this is not a small business (the company is national and the company name and logo are on the front of a high-rise in a large city).

(I broke up your paragraph differently. I'm sorry if I messed up your meaning by doing that.)

I don't know what to say about the company's logo. I've always been bothered by the use of Christian symbols in marketing. It even used to make me edgy when people plastered Christian symbols on their automobiles. I don't know why I feel this way, except that if that's the only way that you have to proclaim your faith, that's a little sad. I'm probably too judgmental about that.

I don't know what they should do about their logo.

I have no indication my friend is being investigated, personally, for any personal wrongdoing or that he "needs" to step down for personal reasons or the like. As near as I can tell, this is to protect the name of the local church (I'm not sure whether the church actually asked him to step down).

Hmm...often in these situations there is more than meets the eye. I don't mean anything by that, just that there are a lot of possibilities here.

It seems that you have limited your friends teaching gift to be only effective in this situation, at this church. Perhaps God is moving him to someplace else?

You also seem to be limiting this gift from the Holy Spirit to this one man. Perhaps God is raising up another teacher to edify you at this church?

I still think that your friend is to be admired because his concern for the body is taking priority over his concern for his own position.

You, also, are to be admired for your steadfast loyalty toward your friend and teacher.

I hope and pray that this will all work out to the glory of God.

whoops, messed up on my question marks and it didn't have the impact I desired. And verb tenses...arrg

I wrote:
And, by the way, don't you think that if you bring disrepute to the Church, you are bringing reproach to Christ? We are His body, after all.

you wrote:
In a way, yes, but the difference here is the reputation of a particular church organization is not the same thing as the church corporate.

Really? You don't experience any backlash from the pedophile Catholic priests? Ok, maybe not. How about homosexual, mega-church, evangelical leaders? How about prosperity teachers busted for accounting fraud? Have you ever had someone roll their eyes when you say that you're a Christian? Have you ever had someone drill you on one of those scandals? I have.

I have, but it's an opportunity to explain to them that not all who call themselves Christians are in fact followers of Christ, and to explain that we are all sinners, and grace of God....

Hmm...often in these situations there is more than meets the eye. I don't mean anything by that, just that there are a lot of possibilities here.

I suspect as much, as well, and it may well be that his church asked him to step down, which would bother me even more.

It seems that you have limited your friends teaching gift to be only effective in this situation, at this church. Perhaps God is moving him to someplace else/

Perhaps, but he's not planning on going anywhere - just cease teaching for a time.

You also seem to be limiting this gift from the Holy Spirit to this one man. Perhaps God is raising up another teacher to edify you at this church/

Of course not, which is another reason I wish there were no positional "Teachers" of the type we have these days. There are a good many people with the gift of teaching who would no doubt contribute much if they didn't have designated teachers standing before their Sunday School / Bible Study classes each week. If they were changing that routine, I'd have less problem. He will certainly be replaced by another in the same capacity.

I still think that your friend is to be admired because his concern for the body is taking priority over his concern for his own position.

Absolutely! I admire his decision greatly - I just disagree with it.