Tares among Wheat

Post by **_Michelle** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:55 pm

Paidion,
Earlier you said: 1. The Kingdom of Heaven is broader than the totality of the disciples of Christ ("The Church", if you will) Do you see the field in this parable, that which the Lord calls the world, as the Kingdom of Heaven?

I'm pretty sure that you are hinting at universalism, but how do you see the weeds, the sons of the evil one, as part of the kingdom? Are they like resident aliens within the kingdom?

Post by **_Homer** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:48 am

Paidion wrote:

If I understand you correctly, Homer, you see "the church" as being a local gathering of disciples among whom may be a number of non-disciples. Does that mean that the mere attending of such a gathering makes you part of the Kingdom of Heaven?

The "visible" church may contain false believers, and church attendance does not a Christian make.

And:

Doesn't the church of Christ consist exclusively of disciples?

In a real sense yes, but we are not capable of determining for sure who is and who isn't.

Steve,

I have difficulty believing your view of the parable is the best one. The problem for my view is that Jesus [Matt. 13:38] describes the field as the world. But I think it is more difficult to see the wheat and tares growing up together as representative of the population of the world. The practical application seems to fit the visible church more easily. Darnel is said to be very difficult to distinguish from wheat until harvest nears. The false believers are concealed among the true, as the darnel is with the wheat. We can not discern the heart; we will no doubt make errors and uproot wheat along with tares. We are to be patient until harvest time, first of all, because we are not capable of carrying out the separation effectively (Matt. 13:29). Perhaps more importantly, God determines the time of separation. The last opportunity for repentance has not come.

In favor of my view is Matthew 13:41-43:

Matthew 13:41-43 (New King James Version)

41. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42. and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Here Jesus indicates the tares are "gathered out of His kingdom", which would seem to be the church.

Another consideration is the figures Jesus uses, darnel and wheat; the darnel might be described as an imposter of wheat. A great number of the lost in this world would never be mistaken for Christians, and make no pretensions of being so.

Certainly there are obvious cases where excommunication is necessary. Jesus described one in Matt. 18:15-17, and we are well aware of the case of the man commiting incest in 1 Corinthians 5. Yet Paul, earlier in I Corinthians wrote the following:

1 Corinthians 4:5 (New King James Version)

5. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

Post by **_livingink** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:10 am

Homer,

It sounds like you are equating the kingdom of God with the church, Christ's ekklesia or body. Is there another kingdom that would cover the rest of the world or is that simply beyond the scope of this parable?

livingink

Post by **_darin-houston** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:11 am

Michelle wrote:I sort of think that the ultimate goal of church discipline is for the restoration of the sinner. You seem to be saying that the goal of church discipline is to remove the sinner from fellowship, perhaps to protect the church??...or am I misunderstanding you?

You raise a good point - though I think it's both purposes, I tend to forget this purpose. Thanks for reminding me.

As to whether the Kingdom of God includes the non-believers, my personal view is that everything is the Kingdom and that Christ is the King even of those who don't recognize His lordship. As ruler, He has (and will have) the right to destroy them in the end if they continue in their rebellion. In man's kingdoms, the prisons are full of those who refuse to submit to the rule of the king. They are just as much part of the kingdom as those who do, but they can't be said to rule with the king.

Post by **_Rae** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:46 am

Michelle wrote:

I sort of think that the ultimate goal of church discipline is for the restoration of the sinner. You seem to be saying that the goal of church discipline is to remove the sinner from fellowship, perhaps to protect the church??...or am I misunderstanding you?

I wouldn't say that the goal of church discipline is removing the unrepentant sinner, but seems to be the means in which Jesus set up so that they could eventually be restored. Yes, the goal is restoration, but the means (if they are unrepentant) is removing them from fellowship.

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:54 am

Michelle you wrote:Paidion,
Earlier you said: 1. The Kingdom of Heaven is broader than the totality of the disciples of Christ ("The Church", if you will) Do you see the field in this parable, that which the Lord calls the world, as the Kingdom of Heaven?

Michelle, I do not have a firm grasp of the matter. This would appear to be a possibility since this is a parable of the Kingdom. Steve has correctly pointed out (in my opinion) that the Kingdom actually consists of King Jesus and His subjects. When Jesus said, "The Kingdom of God is within you", he was speaking to the Pharisees. This does not meant that the Pharisees were part of the Kingdom, but that within their midst was the Kingdom of God, King Jesus and His subjects. So this obviously contradicts my tentative suggestion that the Kingdom is broader than the totality of disciples. I would really like to accept Steve's view, and I would, were it not for Homer's objection. The words Homer quoted from Matthew 13:41,42

The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

From Steve's and wishfully my viewpoint, would this mean that some of Christ's disciples, members of the Kingdom will "offend", that is be a means of stumbling, and that some of them will practise lawlessness, and so be cast into Gehenna, the furnace of fire? If so, then in what sense were they part of His Kingdom? Or are they those who were once true disciples, but who rejected the King's rule in their lives, and thus became reprobates or apostates?

However, the fact that in the parable the darnel was sown by the devil, suggests that they were never true disciples.

So as you may see, I am unable to put it all together so that I can take a definite position.

I'm pretty sure that you are hinting at universalism, but how do you see the weeds, the sons of the evil one, as part of the kingdom? Are they like resident aliens within the kingdom?

No, I wasn't so hinting. The universal reconciliation of all to God didn't enter my mind when I made this suggestion.

Post by **_Michelle** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:33 am

Paidion wrote:No, I wasn't so hinting. The universal reconciliation of all to God didn't enter my mind when I made this suggestion.

Hmm...sorry to have made that assumption, then, except the parable kind of made sense in light of universal reconciliation. The way you've explained your views it seemed to me that the parable would equate the world with the Kingdom, it's just that those sown by the enemy haven't yet bowed their knee to the king. At the end of the age, at the judgement, they will be thrown in the furnace for correction until they finally do submit. At least that's what I thought you were implying.

Post by **_Michelle** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:40 am

Rae wrote:Michelle wrote:
I sort of think that the ultimate goal of church discipline is for the restoration of the sinner. You seem to be saying that the goal of church discipline is to remove the sinner from fellowship, perhaps to protect the church??...or am I misunderstanding you?
I wouldn't say that the goal of church discipline is removing the unrepentant sinner, but seems to be the means in which Jesus set up so that they could eventually be restored. Yes, the goal is restoration, but the means (if they are unrepentant) is removing them from fellowship.

I agree. You said that so much better than I did.

I was trying to get a sense of what Darin's original question about church discipline was. The end of this parable seems to be talking about the destruction of the wicked which I don't think is the same thing as church discipline.