Red wine 'could cause cancer'

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RND
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Re: Red wine 'could cause cancer'

Post by RND » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:46 pm

Paidion wrote:The steward of the wedding feast said to the bridegroom, "Everyone first sets out the good wine, and when they are drunk, serves the worse. You have kept the good wine until now!"
John 2:10


The steward was saying in effect, "Normally people serve the good wine first when it can be appreciated. Then when the guests are drunk, they give them the inferior wine, for when they are drunk, they won't know the difference. But you have done it differently. You have kept the good wine until now!

According to the steward the "good wine" which is normally served first makes people drunk. It is fermented. Would the steward also call the wine Jesus made "good wine", equating it with the "good wine" which is normally served first --- if it were merely grape juice?
A typical Jewish wedding in those days lasted several days and commonly most, if not all, of the community was invited; so let's assume for a second that the Governor was somewhat inebriated Paidon. If he was indeed drunk, which is usually what happened at these shindigs apparently and was "well drunken" then how did he know that a better wine was being served? The Governor said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

What woke the Governor up so fast Paidon that he was able to distinguish between the two types (good and cheap) to the point that he "did not realize where it (the wine Jesus made) had come from?" Was it an alcoholic beverage that Jesus made that did this? Doesn't alcohol numb the senses not make them more heightened? To me it was a miracle pure and simple.

"This beginning of miracles Jesus did."
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Michelle
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Re: Red wine 'could cause cancer'

Post by Michelle » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:34 am

RND wrote: Oh that's certainly true Paidon! :) With the Bible in tow I can justify hammering tent pegs into skulls and crushing babies on the rocks! But would that be God's will?

I have a friend that I work with in prison ministry that says, "The Bible in the hand of the carnal heart is like a chain saw in the hands of a baby!"
That's an interesting saying by your friend -- it certainly is graphic.

I bet if I could talk to you in person and was able to assess body language and voice inflection, I could tell better whether you are being sarcastic, confrontational, or just making chit-chat. I can't tell here, so I'm just going to ask: Are you suggesting that one, some, or all of us have a carnal heart?

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Re: Red wine 'could cause cancer'

Post by RND » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:48 am

Michelle wrote:That's an interesting saying by your friend -- it certainly is graphic.
Michelle, I have learned an awful lot from my friend. Maybe I'll post the "four questions" one day!
I bet if I could talk to you in person and was able to assess body language and voice inflection, I could tell better whether you are being sarcastic, confrontational, or just making chit-chat.


Yeah, I agree. The typed word on a computer screen in no way reflective of the mood and spirit in which something has been offered. But I'm glad you finally asked! :D I'm always making chit-chat, and at times I have indeed been confrontational and a wee-bit sarcastic!

In this case I was just making chit-chat. However, I think I should avail myself to more smiley usage! :D
I can't tell here, so I'm just going to ask: Are you suggesting that one, some, or all of us have a carnal heart?
That's not a decision I would even begin to venture to make Michelle. That is the exclusive work of the Holy Spirit to reveal to the carnal heart, not me. But just so you know that comment was made in jest with regards to the conversation we we're having. It was not directed at anyone here indirectly or at Paidon. Sorry if that comment may have taken out of context but it was made in jest regarding Paidon's comment that "You can always find a Bible verse to back up your belief!" I'm in agreement with him frankly. Hence the carnal heart comment.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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SteveF

Re: Red wine 'could cause cancer'

Post by SteveF » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:32 am

RND wrote
The yeast cells contained on grapes naturally certainly will produce alcohol through fermentation, but this process takes an awfully long time, months and not days.
RND, this is actually incorrect. My wife is Italian and her parents have been making their own wine all of their lives. Fermentation is measured in days not months. The longer fermentation process is used to determine the quality and type of wine you want. It appears at the wedding Jesus made the older wine since he said this later in his ministry:

Luk 5:39 And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, 'The old is good.'"

They enjoyed the wine Jesus made, therefore it must have been old wine and not grape juice.

The sugar in the grapes is converted to alcohol fairly quickly. Wine, by definition, contains alcohol. I was taught drinking wine was a sin when I was first a Christian. I've since found the "grape juice" and "wine is a mocker" arguments unconvincing. Jesus used winemaking in his parables in a way that seemed everyone would be familiar with the process. Jesus clearly drank wine and Paul didn't forbid it.

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.'
Luk 7:34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'


Paul does not list it as sin here but rather as something that may cause someone to stumble:

Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

Paul doesn't forbid wine but speaks against drinking too much (to the point of getting drunk)

1Ti 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain

Tit 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behaviour, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,

Eph 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,


He encourages Timothy to drink small amounts of wine

1Ti 5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)

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Re: Red wine 'could cause cancer'

Post by RND » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:08 am

SteveF wrote:RND, this is actually incorrect. My wife is Italian and her parents have been making their own wine all of their lives. Fermentation is measured in days not months. The longer fermentation process is used to determine the quality and type of wine you want.


Steve, from everything I've read the natural yeast contained on the skin of grapes and in the vines is actually insufficient in quantity and quality to make an adequate wine in terms of alcoholic content, not to mention those skins were high in bacteria or mold that can make the wine taste extremely bitter. While primary fermentation does indeed take a relatively few (7) days, there is little quality to it. It certainly could be drunk but it would be horrible to taste and wouldn't be fermented though. It's the secondary fermentation process that creates the remaining sugars into alcohol but again there is a matter of taste quality to deal with. This process takes anywhere from two to four weeks. Then there is the matter of aging. where additional flavor and body are developed. That's a 12 to 18 month process and even longer for some extremely pricey wines.
It appears at the wedding Jesus made the older wine since he said this later in his ministry:

Luk 5:39 And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, 'The old is good.'"
That was a parable Steve which suggested that no one would put 'new wine' (freshly stomped grape juice) into old bottles because the fermentation process would cause gas and explode the old bottles. Jesus made "new wine" at the wedding in my mind.
They enjoyed the wine Jesus made, therefore it must have been old wine and not grape juice.
It sobered them up Steve. It didn't make them more drunk.
The sugar in the grapes is converted to alcohol fairly quickly. Wine, by definition, contains alcohol. I was taught drinking wine was a sin when I was first a Christian. I've since found the "grape juice" and "wine is a mocker" arguments unconvincing. Jesus used winemaking in his parables in a way that seemed everyone would be familiar with the process.
Steve, there is no conclusive evidence, in my mind, that would indicate Jesus made alcoholic wine to an already inebriated party.
Jesus clearly drank wine and Paul didn't forbid it.

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.'
Luk 7:34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
I haven't suggested Jesus never drank wine, just never drank alcoholic wine.
Paul does not list it as sin here but rather as something that may cause someone to stumble:

Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
So if my wine drinking cause my neighbor to stumble I shouldn't do it.
Paul doesn't forbid wine but speaks against drinking too much (to the point of getting drunk)

1Ti 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain

Tit 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behaviour, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,


Eph 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,


I guess the best way not to get drunk is not to be given to too much wine. :D
He encourages Timothy to drink small amounts of wine

1Ti 5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)
Small amounts for a specific reason.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: Red wine 'could cause cancer'

Post by TK » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:11 am

RND-

where do you get the idea that Jesus' wine "sobered them up?" i just re-read the passage and see no implication of this.

TK

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Re: Red wine 'could cause cancer'

Post by RND » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:16 am

TK wrote:RND-

where do you get the idea that Jesus' wine "sobered them up?" i just re-read the passage and see no implication of this.

TK
If at a huge party they give the cheap wine at the end, after giving the good at the beginning, that seems to indicate they give the cheap to a drunk man because the senses have been dulled from too much drinking. Thus the rational is that the drunk "don't know the difference."

But the governor/ruler of the feast, who himself must have been drinking for three days was able to tell the wine being served to him was wine like he had never tasted before.

v.9 - When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

To me that was part of the message and the miracle. That the Blood of Christ, symbolized in the filling up of the heart of stone that man naturally possesses, can "awaken" the senses of mankind. Being drunk is a symbol of sin and iniquity. the six stone pots represent the unregenerate man. The wedding represents the groom Jesus reaching out to fill up His bride.

Frankly TK, I am 100% certain we will all get a taste of that wine one day and he won't complain at all that we didn't get drunk on it! :D Anyway, not suggesting you have to believe like I do TK but I see loads of symbolism at that wedding feast. BTW, there is a great book by Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University about this called: WINE IN THE BIBLE: A BIBLICAL STUDY ON THE USE OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES This link takes you to the chapter "Jesus and wine" that brings up many fascinating points that you may find of interest. Enjoy!
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Re: Red wine 'could cause cancer'

Post by TK » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:22 pm

RND-

i think you are reading much into that passage. i suppose you can do so if you wish. but a three day feast doesnt mean they were drinking non-stop for 3 days- how could they? there is nothing that said that head of the feast was trashed, although he may have been a little tipsy. you are going out on quite a limb to suggest that the miraculous wine was a buzzkill, although like i said you can certainly believe this if you wish.

i think it is a mistake to assume that wine drinking and perhaps some degree of "feeling good" from the wine associated with biblical feasts was "sinful." now i know the bible says not to be drunk, etc, but it seems to refer to habitual drunkenness or a lifestyle of drunkeness. i dont believe the biblical prohibitions meant that wine drinking, in association with feasts, was wrong. of course drunkeness could lead to debauchery, as possibly with the israelites when moses was on sinai. but it seems that wine was drank with regularity in Bible times, and to suggest that OT believers or NT disciples never felt the effect of the wine they drank may be a bit naive.

please dont take my comments as an argument for wine-bibbing. i am not doing so.

TK

SteveF

Re: Red wine 'could cause cancer'

Post by SteveF » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:23 pm

Steve, from everything I've read the natural yeast contained on the skin of grapes and in the vines is actually insufficient in quantity and quality to make an adequate wine in terms of alcoholic content, not to mention those skins were high in bacteria or mold that can make the wine taste extremely bitter. While primary fermentation does indeed take a relatively few (7) days, there is little quality to it
RND, again this is incorrect. My father in law simply leaves it out and in a few days it has fermented. Reason? There are also yeast spores in the air which escalates the process. Therefore the intrinsic quantity of yeast in the grape itself is only part of the equation. Also, your reference to “7 days” is variable. The hotter it is the faster the process. This means in the Middle East it would happen much faster.

If “new wine” would not ferment significantly then why would they accuse the apostles of being drunk on “new wine” in Acts 2.
That was a parable Steve which suggested that no one would put 'new wine' (freshly stomped grape juice) into old bottles because the fermentation process would cause gas and explode the old bottles. Jesus made "new wine" at the wedding in my mind.
RND, in Luke 5:39 Jesus was using a well known fact to integrate a point into his parable. The fact that people prefer old wine is not a parable it is a fact.
It sobered them up Steve. It didn't make them more drunk.
See TK’s point. I don’t know where you find this in the passage??
I haven't suggested Jesus never drank wine, just never drank alcoholic wine
RND, I don’t see how you can interpret this as non-alcoholic wine. The wine Jesus drank was being contrasted with the wine John didn’t drink. Which wine didn’t John drink? I don't see how it can be understood as anything but alcoholic wine.

Also, why would Jesus say they accused him of being a drunkard if he was drinking grape juice. The inference here is quite clear to me.
So if my wine drinking cause my neighbor to stumble I shouldn't do it.
Yes, that seems to be what Paul is saying. The point is that many Christians clearly seemed to be doing it but Paul did not call it a sin nor forbid it. May I add RND, that if you think drinking wine is a sin you should not do it. We should never do anything against out conscience. At the end of the passage Paul states the following:

22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who (AM)does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23But (AN)he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.


Therefore, if you think it’s wrong and do it anyway then you’ve sinned. Though technically you’ve done nothing wrong, you have sinned because, in your mind, you have disobeyed God. Once you are convinced in your own mind that it’s not sin, then you’re free to drink.
I guess the best way not to get drunk is not to be given to too much wine.
Yes, that’s the point. Paul never told anyone not to drink even while acknowledging that some did.
Small amounts for a specific reason.
Agreed
Last edited by SteveF on Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SteveF

Re: Red wine 'could cause cancer'

Post by SteveF » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:34 pm

TK wrote
please dont take my comments as an argument for wine-bibbing. i am not doing so.
Yes, even though my in-laws have been growing their own grapes and making wine for many decades (including a long time in Italy where refrigeration was not readily avialable, hence the reason for wine and not grape juice) my wife said she has never seen them drunk.

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