Faith... why?

[RV]

As I'm perplexed over many things, one of them lately is Faith, and God's requirement of it.

Why faith?

Any thoughts? I'm really at a dead end in my ability to reason through it. I need a fresh perspective.

[mikew]

Where is your question or conflict?

What can you say about your understanding of faith verses?

[steve]

Perhaps the question is, "Of all of the things God could have made the condition for all of His blessings, why did He choose faith, instead of something else?"

I have several suggestions:

1) Faith/trust are the foundation of any relationship. A lack of trust is as harmful (if not more harmful) to a relationship as is lack of love, or any other quality. In fact, to disbelieve a person is the supreme insult, since it is to judge him/her to be a liar (1 John 5:10; contr. Heb.11:11);

2) Faith is that which gives us access to knowledge of things unseen (Heb.11:1). There is a whole unseen realm, where God Himself exists, which requires faith for us to know anything about. To this unseen realm belong, not only God Himself, but also the future, all things spiritual, and (often) the wisdom of God's providences. Without faith in the integrity of God and His word, we could never know what God wants to share with us about Himself and His realm;

3) Faith earns nothing. Therefore, naming faith as the condition for receiving every blessing from God precludes the recipient of any possibility of boasting or of feeling that the benefit is earned by, or owed to, him/her (Rom.3:27; 4:2-5).

There may be other reasons beside these, though these ones are clearly suggested in scripture.

[SteveF]

Also,

Faith leads to obedience. If someone tells us to do something and we trust their word then we’ll do it. Or, in other cases, refrain from doing something (like not taking vengeance and leaving something in God’s hands)

Building on Steve’s first two points, faith leads to a reliance on in God in prayer. If we have faith in who God says he is we will continue in prayer because we know he holds the answers Luke 11:8-10. Our faith also gives us the confidence he actually hears us 1 Pet 3:12.

Faith also leads us to seek God. If we trust He is the creator then He will become our life pursuit Heb 11:6. We will seek him through prayer. We will also desire his wisdom and direction through reading the scriptures.

I basically see faith as the foundation of everyday life. It touches on every aspect of our relationship with God, and as a result, how we relate to each other as well.

[RV]

What about this:

He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (Gen 22:12)

If we take this at face value, faith does make sense. I've often heard this scripture explained away, but what do you guys think.

I know the standard answer: God knew, but Abraham didn't and he (Abraham) needed to know. "Christians are like sponges, you don't know what's in them until their squeezed." Cute... but doesn't make sense.

But, in it's context I don't see that.

On the other hand, we have Job.

Steve, you've probably wrestled through this one, what do you think?

[steve]

I am not sure I understand your last question. If you are asking about something that was not answered in the earlier posts, I would appreciate the question being expressed more clearly.

[RV]

Well... I'm not one that typically thinks that God didn't know what Abraham would do, but it sure does appear that way.

I feel funny even asking it, but did God know what Abraham would do? If so... why test him, and then why the comment: for now I know that you fear God.

So... Faith, required by God, is it possible He doesn't know for sure what we'll do?

Seems crazy to me at this point, but so did preterist at one point.

[RND]

Well... I'm not one that typically thinks that God didn't know what Abraham would do, but it sure does appear that way.

I feel funny even asking it, but did God know what Abraham would do? If so... why test him, and then why the comment: for now I know that you fear God.

So... Faith, required by God, is it possible He doesn't know for sure what we'll do?

Seems crazy to me at this point, but so did preterist at one point.

God knows exactly what we will do, or will not do and yet at the same time He is working hard to make sure He sees His reflection in us!

Mal 3:2 "But who will be able to endure it when he comes? Who will be able to stand and face him when he appears? For he will be like a blazing fire that refines metal or like a strong soap that whitens clothes: Mal 3:3 He will sit and judge like a refiner of silver, watching closely as the dross is burned away. He will purify the Levites, refining them like gold or silver, so that they may once again offer acceptable sacrifices to the LORD.

God had called Abraham to be the father of the faithful, and his life was to stand as an example of faith to succeeding generations. But that faith needed to be honed, refined, and tested by God - not to prove to God that Abraham had faith, but to grow his faith. God already knew of Abraham's faith. Abraham didn't.

[steve]

RV,

I guess I still don't see the connection. It sounds like you are now asking about God's foreknowledge—a topic that has a number of other threads already devoted to it. I am trying to understand how the question of God's foreknowledge of Abraham's actions (or anyone else's) connects to the question raised in this thread. Maybe my mind is just not working clearly here.

[Paidion]

Well... I'm not one that typically thinks that God didn't know what Abraham would do, but it sure does appear that way.

I feel funny even asking it, but did God know what Abraham would do? If so... why test him, and then why the comment: for now I know that you fear God.

RV, You probably "feel funny even asking it" because you feel out of place questioning an assumption which the vast majority of Christians hold, including those who frequent this forum --- the assumption that God's omniscience extends even to knowing what CANNOT BE KNOWN, that is, knowing in advance what free-will agents will choose. Analogously, it's similar to believing that God's omnipotence extends even to being able to create a rock so large that He can't lift it. Both assumptions are logically self-contradictory as I have explained elsewhere.

In any case we don't want to change the topic of this thread, and so perhaps any further comments on the topic could be relegated to the thread you started: Can God know the future? Have you read the most recent posts in that thread?

If you wish to do some reading on the topic, I recommend Gregory Boyd's book God of the Possible. You can order in new from Amazon for as little as $9.04 USD. Check out the link below. You can even look inside the book at Amazon free, see the table of contents and/or read pages 21-26 of chapter one.

God of the Possible

Mr. Boyd believes that God knows some of the future but not all of it ---- unlike myself, who believes that all of the future, though predictable, is unknowable in the absolute sense of "know". I suppose I would be classified as an "ultra" open theist.