assistance to non believer - WWJD?

[christopher]

Hi Peter,

Personally, I agree with Suzanna. I’d give her the ride (or actually, I’d encourage my wife to give her the ride), and I personally think Jesus would do the same.

Jesus was known for scandalously surprising gestures toward the “unlovely” of His day, and I think His followers should be willing to do the same. We can get so hung up on appearances, that we can so easily alienate those who need our love the most. The Samaritan woman that Jesus met at the well (John 4) was living in sin. Jesus didn’t dwell on it, He told her about living water and won her over. We don’t know the rest of her story, but I’m guessing she changed her ways without Jesus needing to spell it out for her.

On another occasion, Jesus allowed a woman of ill-repute to make a spectacle all over Him in a very religiously visible setting (Luke 7). He didn’t seem to feel the need to justify Himself and we can’t be sure what drove her to do this, but it’s interesting that Jesus didn’t need to tell her to get her act together. It was almost assumed that when she came to him in this state of brokenness, it would just happen. “Your faith has saved you, go in peace” is what he told her. Notice he didn’t tell her that she needed to find another job (I’m assuming being a “sinner” meant she was a prostitute).

We have to remember that while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us (Romans 5:8). The change comes after, not before. I’m thinking…let the Holy Spirit do the convicting, He’s pretty good at it. How are most of us usually convicted of our sins?

Why not spend some time getting to know this woman? The car ride to work can be a great opportunity for that. Show genuine interest in her, not what she does. Ask her how she likes her job. Chances are, she doesn’t really like it and if she trusts you she’ll tell you why. What an opportunity to offer her a “more excellent way”.

It sounds like this woman already knows from experience what to expect from Christians. Why do we always assume unbelievers need to be constantly reminded by us of their sin? They usually already know. And if they don’t, their ears aren’t open to it anyway.

Peter wrote:

She did expressed displeasure over how she is judged by Christians, and also how it was the "girls at the club" who really cared about her, and helped her with her needs in some prior situations. She said that other Christian's she knew did not assist at all.

She feels judged by Christians and loved by girls at the club. Reading between the lines, her occupation is about more than just making money. It’s about a sense of belonging (family?). I think she’s going to have to feel like she’ll get that from the Church family before she trades her in her club family. I don’t think she needs another reason to affirm her suspicions about Christians, she needs to be surprised by Jesus, who is so madly in love with her that He’s willing to allow Himself to be temporarily scandalized by her circumstances.

[darinhouston]

I say this with all the conviction of a functioning hypocrite but I tend to agree with Suzanna and Christopher. Do we know what the man on the way to Jericho was going to do when the Samaritan came along and "enabled" him ? Does it matter? Doesn't all care to sinners go toward enabling them to perpetuate their sin in some degree? Even sustenance sustains them in their present situation without Christ. I used to think that helping non-Christians before they reached the point of misery that would bring them to Christ was impeding their spiritual journey, and was unloving. Boy, can the evil one distort Christ's love! I now believe that God will cause whatever misery a man needs (if that's what they need) with or without my assistance, and that even in the pit of dispair one wouldn't turn to Christ unless he/she had first experienced His love. They experience that love through me. So, I have to leave their sin and their relationship with Christ to them and help them where they happen to be. That doesn't mean I give them drugs. Driving them knowingly and continually to a place of sin sounds like it might cross the line, but how would that be any different than driving them to a greedy and corrupt place of business? (I'm not saying all business is like this, but many are - that's another topic altogether).

We don't want people in the ditch to say "oh, no, not another Christian!" If you've ever waited tables, you know this is the way Christians are seen by society today. That won't end until we quit putting up signs convicting non-Christians of their sinful ways and start putting them down and cleaning their wounds.

We'll know the end is near when the sinful despondent see a group of Christians (nay, priests) and say "thank God, it's Christians coming near."

For the present fact scenario, the only question to me is whether it is the loving thing to do for her. That can be a difficult calculus, but the mere fact (alone) that she is going to a place of sin isn't determinative.

[Homer]

Darin wrote:

I used to think that helping non-Christians before they reached the point of misery that would bring them to Christ was impeding their spiritual journey, and was unloving. Boy, can the evil one distort Christ's love! I now believe that God will cause whatever misery a man needs (if that's what they need) with or without my assistance, and that even in the pit of dispair one wouldn't turn to Christ unless he/she had first experienced His love.

For what its worth, this reminds me of Wayne. Wayne lived a dissolute life for most of his years. Alcohol, drugs, and women, and a number of times in jail. He never found happiness. One day at work a Christain lady told Wayne "You need Jesus". Wayne began coming to church and became a Christian. And now his testimony about Jesus and the happiness he has found in Christ is given with tears of joy - the most convincing, sincere testimony I have ever heard. He reminds me of Jesus saying that the one forgiven the most will love Him the most. Would that I love Him as much as Wayne!

One day I was talking to Wayne about giving to the beggers with cardboard signs that are numerous in a nearby city. Wayne's response was "Don't give them a thing, God has them right where He want's them". Perhaps Wayne is right more often than not.

Having said that, I find myself in agreement with Candlepower and Askmatt. It seems to me that the stories of Jesus turning the water into wine and His encounter with the woman at the well are not pertinent. There is too much being assumed, while the analogy of giving assistance to the abortionist seems on the mark.

I would suggest another scenario. Imagine Jesus had come today. The Law is still in effect. Jesus, the traveling preacher, is driving to the next town in His old Volkswagon van when He encounters two men holding up a sign asking for a ride. Jesus pulls over to pick them up.

Jesus: "Hi, hop in, where you fellows going?"

The One with the Scruffy Beard: "Well, we are Pharisees; we've got important business in the next town."

Jesus: "Oh, what's that?

Other Pharisee: Well, we got word that a woman was caught in adultery and we've got to get there and do our part. She will be stoned as soon as we can all get there.

And what will Jesus do, give them a ride to "work" and hope to plant a seed by his kind assistance to them?

It seems to me that the sinful occupation of the stripper is not being regarded as seriously as it should be. How many adulteries, in the heart and more importantly actual, will she inspire? How many marriages destroyed? How many cases of AIDS have been an indirect result? Who can tell? What do the scriptures say about those who not only sin, but encourage others to sin?

I will stick with my advice posted earlier.

May the Spirit of the Lord lead you and guide you Thrombomodulin!

Blessings, Homer

[TK]

You know it's a good discussion when you keep wavering, depending on the last post.

I'm still leaning toward giving the ride, although I am by no means 100% convinced. only about 75%.

TK

[look2jesus]

Does not God "enable" this woman to do what she does by giving her life and breath? Is it not in Him that she lives and moves and exists? Is He not the offended party in question? Yet, according to the scripture, He loves her, and sent His Son to die for sinners such as she is. Is it possible for us to provide help and comfort to any sinners without, in some way, contributing to their ongoing rebellion against God? Does that make us partakers in other men's sins? It seems to me to be a slippery slope to go down if we start determining who we will love and provide comfort to based upon what kind of sinner they are. By all means, we must be wise as serpents but also, we must be harmless as doves. Is the name of Christ more exalted or is it besmirched when we go down in the trenches with the unwashed for Jesus' sake, to help in time of need? Jesus told the self-righteous Pharisees that the tax collectors and prostitutes would get into the kingdom of God before them, but how will they enter unless we are willing to love them and show them the way?

[steve7150]

It seems to me to be a slippery slope to go down if we start determining who we will love and provide comfort to based upon what kind of sinner they are.






Exactly what i was thinking. The adulteress in John 8 may have been already a believer when Jesus said "go and sin no more" for she had already called him Lord.
The slope is indeed slippery, should we give our family member or friend a lift to work who is a bartender? a blackjack card dealer, a liquor store owner, a teacher who teaches evolution, a compulsive gambler, an employee at an abortion center, an openly homosexual teacher? Are we any better except for Jesus?
Did'nt Paul say it's the love of God that leads men to repentence? It's not believers standing in judgment of sinners that convert unbelievers, plus unbelievers have no reason or motivation to change anything but have real motivation to not even consider Jesus when we appear to be self righteous but call ourselves his followers.

[thrombomodulin]

Does not God "enable" this woman to do what she does by giving her life and breath? Is it not in Him that she lives and moves and exists? ...

Yes. God certainly has created the world in such a way as to permit the possibility of choice - we can choose at any moment to act sinfully or righteously. The whole history of the Jews was God giving a people a choice, looking for good fruit, and not often finding it. Whenever we assist or interact with a person in any way, we are changing the circumstances of their lives, and they will be faced with different choices than otherwise would have been. The new circumstances will leave them more or less capable of bringing about good or evil consequences. Has God not given each person the ability to choose good or evil, in hopes of the possibility that each will choose the former? Has God not considered whether he has given men too much or too little freedom that they may adversely effect themselves and others?

Are we not called to bring about what is good? To return to owner of the vineyard the fruit he is seeking but did not find in Israel? If we know our actions enhance the capabilities for the person which could be used for either good or evil depending upon their choices (e.g. I fix their truck, but they decide how to use it), then it is seems fair enough to dispose of the resources under my control (e.g. my time and money) since it was foreseeable that a good outcome could be possibly be attained. Is this not an imitation of exactly what God is doing with all men?

But, on the other hand, if I cannot foresee any potential use of the resources I am giving away to be used in any way other than to bear bad fruit - then why employ them this way? To what other ends could she possibly have used the ride for except to sell an adult show?

Steve7150 rightly points out the slope is slippery, but shall we not be shrewd about how we utilize our limited resources? I mean to say, our the choice of how to use resources God has given us control over (time, money, goods, etc,..) is not limited to what was asked for. Shall our main goal not be just helping people in general, but helping people so as to retain the possibility that good, in God's reckoning, may come of it? We may not always be clever enough to identify an alternative "gift" in ever scenario, but when we do shall we not choose it? In my case, shall we not offer help in fixing the truck, instead of giving a ride?

... when we appear to be self righteous but call ourselves his followers.

The point is not be self-righteous, but rather to be righteous in all we do. I am saying that we should refrain only in those cases where we cannot foresee any possibility besides an evil outcome.

[Homer]

Thrombomodulin wrote:

The point is not be self-righteous, but rather to be righteous in all we do. I am saying that we should refrain only in those cases where we cannot foresee any possibility besides an evil outcome.

Dancing naked before men is for sure an evil outcome. And this is only tangentially the point at issue. Let's change the story slightly. Instead of the young woman needing a ride to work as a stripper, let's say she is going to work for an escort service that includes sexual acts as part of the service. She says her "best" client has called and wants her to come over for the night; his wife is out of town with the kids. She says she needs the money, and the client tips generously. Would you give her a ride to her assignment? Why not? Is it because you perceive the sin as greater than that of dancing naked before someone else's husband(s) and "inspiring" them to hook up with the prostitutes patiently waiting nearby?

Will somebody please explain to me why Christians (a congregation) should not inform the woman that she need not do this work and that they will see to it that her needs are met for food and shelter until she (and her man) can support themselves?

James 2:15-16 paraphrased:

"If a young man and woman are in need of food and shelter, and one of you says to them,'I will give you a ride to your stripper job; be warmed and be filled', and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?"

To me the real issue is not whether to give the young woman a ride, but are we willing to help such people so that they do not need to do that kind of work. I have seen far too many times how difficult it is to get a group of Christians to all agree to help someone who is perceived not to "deserve" it. This ought to be one of the functions of a church, doing collectively what would be a big burden for an individual. And sometimes it takes a significant amount of money.

[steve7150]

To me the issue is not whether to give the young woman a ride, but are we willing to help such people so that they do not need to do that kind of work




One of the problems is that they (unbelievers) don't look at sin like a Jesus follower does. I'm confident there are some people who have "informed her" that she can get food and shelter in other ways already.That's one of the reasons they may do what they do. It's not necessarily only about the money as in this case there were other issues like feeling part of a family or group that seemed to support each other in some way. There also may be some sense of independence and self sufficiency that blinds the person from seeing the sin involved.
They will do what they do whether we give a ride or not, the issue is whether they perceive any alternative if they ever come to the end of themselves.
My understanding of Jesus was that he used compassion toward the sinners who realized they were sinners and he was harsh toward people who believed they did right , in fact so much so they became self righteous.
I think none of us are better then the exotic dancer except that we know Jesus, and presenting that option to the sinner outweighs the fact she will dance one more time, which she will do in any event.
As to Homer's point about the prostitute and her best client, i agree with him on that since there are directly other people involved getting hurt and it is a much greater sin , so yes there are limits, some sins clearly are worse then others.
I would give the ride to the dancer "conditionally" if i felt she was at least open to hearing about Jesus even as she continued to dance.

[darinhouston]

I know that this can get silly quickly, but what if instead of taking her to work you were taking her home from a conventional straight no-sin (yeah, right!) job but her home is where she lives with her boyfriend in adultery? I just can't see that we are responsible for their sin, especially if we let them know what God says about it. Then, we leave it to their conscience like the other non-overt non-scandalous sins others we may serve have while we love them into Jesus' arms.

No?