assistance to non believer - WWJD?

[look2jesus]

...love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you.(Luke 6:35-38 ESV)

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you.(1 Cor. 5:9-13 ESV)

I tried to make the point, in my previous post, that this woman is remaining in her sinful lifestyle only by the mercy of God (and, but for the grace of God, go I). I have to ask myself, "What is my role" in the above scenario? It seems that, if we are to be sons of the Most High, that we will emulate our Father. He is kind to the ungrateful and evil. Jesus commands us to love our enemies. And, in this context, we are told to be merciful; judge not; condemn not; forgive; and give. It seems clear that Paul is emphatic that it is not a sin to associate with "the sexually immoral of this world". He says he has no business judging outsiders--that seems to be God's perogative. The question is, are we called to love conditionally or unconditionally. If we have opportunity, in the course of giving aid to those in need, of course we should speak the truth, in love. Of course we should try to persuade them to follow Christ. But if they fail to heed our advice, do we then withdraw from helping out?

They will do what they do whether we give a ride or not, the issue is whether they perceive any alternative if they ever come to the end of themselves.

When they do come to the end of themselves I want them to remember the good works that they saw and glorify my Father in heaven.

[Homer]

Hi look2jesus,

What you write is true but misses my point. The rule we must follow is to love and the question is what is the loving thing to do? What would we do if she was our child? I would think that we would see to it that she had shelter, food, clothes, etc. and assist her in finding a useful occupation. But that costs money, something that churches often spend much more easily on buildings than they do on helping the poor. The stripper has already been to a church; if they are able, they should help her. I have seen a small church that averaged about 100 in attendance help out people many times at a cost of thousands of dollars in each case. It can be done if we will it.

What should we do if a young girl on the street asks for money for food? The easy answer is to not give her money but to buy her a sandwich. Yet a local mother, whose teenaged daughter was a runaway, was pleading in the newspaper for people to not give the kids on the street anything at all. She believed that if her daughter wasn't enabled to live on the street she would come home. So what do we do?

I had another thought on the stripper that is the subject of this thread. She is pregnant and obviously will soon lose her stripper job unless she gets an abortion. If she asks for money for an abortion, what then?

Blessings, Homer

[steve7150]

I had another thought on the stripper that is the subject of this thread. She is pregnant and obviously will soon lose her stripper job unless she gets an abortion. If she asks for money for an abortion, what then?








There are degrees of sin and obviously abortion is a big one , but what if she needs money to have the child and says she will give it up for adoption because she needs to get her job back?

[Candlepower]

Thrombomodulin wrote:

...I am thinking that before addressing the issue of employment, one should communicate the reality of Christ Jesus as a King, and that one must and submit to His authority. She would then have 'count the cost' and choose whether or not she will join the ranks of the believers. Part of the cost, for sure, is to give up this career.

I agree, though I think that what you and the others have already done by providing the couple a warm, dry, comfortable place to stay is an excellent display of Christ in action.

Will somebody please explain to me why Christians (a congregation) should not inform the woman that she need not do this work and that they will see to it that her needs are met for food and shelter until she (and her man) can support themselves?

I agree, and I think Homer has hit several other nails square on the head in this discussion.

I return to something I said earlier in this thread, about Jesus being able to fellowship with sinners without facilitating their sin. That seemed obvious to me, but it may not have seemed obvious to others. Let me explain and expand:

1) Jesus drank wine. He allows us to drink wine if we choose. I drink a little wine now and then. But in allowing us to drink wine, Jesus in no way is responsible for the times when people drink wine in excess (drunkenness). In drinking wine with sinners (and manufacturing it at the wedding), Jesus was not facilitating sin. If someone got drunk at the wedding, it wasn't Jesus' fault, and He didn't facilitate that drunkenness by providing the wine. The sinful use of wine is our choice. Had Jesus encouraged folks to get drunk, it would have been a sin. Jesus did not sin.

2) Jesus ate food. He allows us to eat food. I eat some myself. But in allowing us to eat food, Jesus is in no way responsible for morbid obesity. In eating food with sinners, Jesus was not facilitating the possibility of them sinning by becoming obese. The sinful use of food is our choice. If Jesus had encouraged people to be gluttons, it would have been a sin. Jesus did not sin.

3) Jesus and His disciples had a bag of money. He allows us to have money. I have a few bucks. But in allowing us to have money, Jesus is in now way endorsing greed or the worship of mammon. The sinful use of money is not God's fault. Sin is always man's choice.


So, how does this relate to the young couple in question?

1) Providing food, shelter, clothing, money, and the gospel to an unsaved person who really needs it does not seem to me to be wrong. All of these things are basic human needs and none of them inevitably leads to sin. In my opinion, providing transportation for someone to work at strip joint does not qualify as a basic human need and definitely does lead to sin. There is the line of demarcation. I don't think Jesus ever crossed that line. Being divine, He knew just what to do all the time, unlike us.

2) If Jesus had been faced with the same situation thromomodulin is facing, I think He would have loved the woman too much to transport her to a place where she would definitely sin and encourage others to sin. Doing so seems to me somehow akin to encouraging drunkenness, or obesity, or greed.

3) The solution (and the difficulty) lies, I think, in figuring out where the line is and not crossing it. One might say that anything you do for the woman promotes her sinful employment. That is not untrue. But the difficulty here is that we have people with genuine human needs, I presume. Do we deny them the help they actually need? Probably not. So, then, the line seems to me to be at that point where the Christian actually, unequivocally, directly aids and abets sin (delivering the woman to her den of iniquity). That action seems to me to cross the line. I could not do it. "But she needs money to buy basic human needs," you might say. There are alternatives that can be provided (Homer and others have suggested some), and to a great extent they are already being provided. Money to buy basic human needs is a basic human need. But public stripping to get that money is not a basic human need.

4) One final point (I promise). How long does this go on? There are definitely many folks out there who have learned how to milk Christians for as much as they can get out of them. It is a home (or homeless) industry of sorts. Theoretically, Thrombomodulin's situation could go on for years. What if the couple's car is repaired, the woman refuses to take or seek employment elsewhere, continues to "dance," continues to reject Christ, and continues to "need" your help. How do you extract yourself from something when it becomes clear that you are being taken advantage of? Do you keep-on-keeping-on, hoping that eventually she will repent and surrender to Jesus? Well we certainly hope and pray for the best, but the folks helping the young couple might need to consider this possible upcoming problem.

Again, I commend you, thrombomodulin (and the others), for what you are doing to help this lost couple while trying to "keep unspotted from the world." (James 1:27) And I direct you all back to Homer's posts, which seem full of good sense, advice, and challenge.

God bless those who are in Christ, and God help those who are not.

Candlepower

[look2jesus]

Hi Homer,

The rule we must follow is to love and the question is what is the loving thing to do? What would we do if she was our child? I would think that we would see to it that she had shelter, food, clothes, etc. and assist her in finding a useful occupation...

I have a son (age 22 now) that was living with me after years of living as the prodigal son had before returning to his father. He came to me with no money, no job skills, and not much of a work ethic. As an unbeliever, he did not behave in a way that was pleasing to me. (From age thirteen he lived with his mother who had left me for another man, preventing me from having much contact with him). But, as often happens, these people will fall on hard times, and my new wife and I agreed to take him in, under certain conditions which were agreed to. Briefly, though he started off well, things deteriorated quickly and he fell back into his old ways and I was forced to ask him to leave.

I think there is a difference between how we interact with a close family member, and a stranger (obviously). I know my son quite well, and am able to make judgments about him that I couldn't do with a stranger, but, at the same time, there can be common behaviors that might need to be addressed in either case. I guess what I'm trying to say is, when it comes to helping strangers, especially unbelievers, I think it is important that they see the love of God shown to them in ways that they can feel and understand from their point of view (focusing more, at least, initially, on their felt needs, rather than what we, as Christians, might feel they really need). Hopefully, this will lead to opportunities to lovingly share Christ; advance alternate solutions that would be more godly; and other such things that might lead to a more honorable way of life.

One of the things I struggle with, and it touches on what your friend Wayne said, is that I don't want to get in the way of God dealing in a person's life. If it's God's intention to bring a person down, in order that later they be raised up, I don't want to bring temporary relief to that person. On the other hand, it may take some time to discern whether or not a person is in a particular situation due to the natural consequences of their behavior, or through no fault of their own. So, at least initially, I think we should help them, asking nothing. And, later, if the person is open to it, God may open the door for us to help them in a more substantial way. What I want to avoid, nearly at all costs, is causing the name of Christ to be blasphemed among the unbelievers because of an unloving; judgmental; condemning; and unforgiving attitude on my part.

Let me finish by saying that I really don't have much of a disagreement with anything you've stated here, and I respect your point of view. Theologically, I find myself agreeing with you more often than not and I appreciate your obvious love for Christ, for people, and of the truth. Best regards.

l2j

[look2jesus]

Hello Candlepower,

I was thinking of you, as well, in my previous post, and I hope my views were understandable and acceptable. As I told Homer, I sympathize with where you're coming from and I hope it doesn't seem that I was, anywhere, suggesting that either of you (or anyone else) were being judgmental or condemning or unforgiving in your attitudes. I can't argue too much over anything you said, but I was trying to address the issue from a different perspective, perhaps. Grace to you.

l2j

[darinhouston]

There have been some really, really good points here and I agree with most of them. I think this last round of comments reminds me that we can't make a black letter rule and need to let the Spirit guide us in where a particular line is with a particular person/situation. It also suggests an option somewhere between saying "no" and supporting her financially. Consider telling her you'll take her to work for a period of time provided she is willing to seek other employment, particularly one that would enable her to carry the child, and that you will even help her with her job search, and be with her for Dr. visits, etc. and at least consider adoption as a choice. That avoids the "extrication" problem, puts a somewhat definite term on the commitment, the length and extent of which is at least somewhat dependent on her. Then, you can continue to be an influence for Christ while being there for her to show her His love.

[Homer]

Interesting we are having this discussion and I received this in my email this afternoon:

Hello Prayer Warriors,
I am looking for an advocate for a single mom and her two children currently living in their van in Albany. They are scheduled to be staffed at an Adult Services Team Wednesday at 2:00. At this meeting multiple service providers will help to create an action plan…a step by step process of connecting with resources for them to be able to get into housing. Love INC provides the advocate…the helper to walk with her through this action plan.

I have not yet been able to come up with a good match so please pray as I know God has someone in mind.

Thank you,
Deb ________
Executive Director
Love INC

For those who do not know, Love INC stands for "Love In the Name of Christ". Deb sent a follow up email; she had her volunteer advocate in less than a half hour!

This is an example of what Christians can do when they function as the body of Christ. As individuals we are much less effective IMO.

[Candlepower]

Thank you L2J. I appreciate your contribution and perspective. Doing these posts is very difficult because it is so easy to misspeak, to be misunderstood, to infer when we shouldn't, and to imply when we shouldn't. So many of the misunderstandings that happen here are because we don't have the luxury of being face to face where we can hear each other's tone of voice, inflections, etc., and where either party can instantly clarify/reword when he misunderstands or feels he has been misunderstood. Remote, disconnected communications like these also make us feel less obligated to be polite because we don't have to see the face of the one on whose toes we carelessly step. I think something this forum provides that maybe we don't appreciate enough is the opportunity to be gracious (yet outspoken) with others. That is a greater challenge, even, than letting folks know our two cents. I'm working at it. Overall, I think everyone tries hard and does a good job. You are gracious, brother.

Candlepower

[TK]

I think it seems clear there is no absolute right or wrong answer to this dilemma, since I seem to be siding with whoever wrote the last post.

Perhaps this is just one of those cases where if it goes against your conscience to give her a ride, then don't; if you don't have a problem with it, feel free.

TK