Politics

thrombomodulin
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Re: Politics

Post by thrombomodulin » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:37 pm

Steve wrote:If we take no legislative action, we take the risk that our secular society may lose ground in terms of its reflecting a Christianized culture.
I would like to ask - why would you affirm that this is true? Is it because some people have been in the habit of assuming the State is a reliable teacher of ethics? Beyond the three reasons you listed for abstaining from legislative action, should we not add a fourth: that we promote the State as being an institution, which competes with the Church, in defining legitimate values? Consider that since Christians are usually not a majority, any control they may attain over the State is likely to not last for long. (Government schooling makes a good example of an institution some Christians promoted initially, but now is controlled by those who are enemies of Christ. Would it not have been better to have never granted government control of education at all?).

Unlike the Church, the State has only one means at its disposal to implement its will - the use of violence, or the threat of its use. Thus, when considering any question of legislation I think our first question should be "Has God authorized believers to use aggression against their neighbor if they do ___?". If we lack any such mandate, does not the Non Aggression Principle follow given that the biblical teaching honors property rights? If a minarchist, or even anarchist (as in no human authority), is the correct view for a Christian to hold about government, it would, in my opinion, also be a good explanation for the lack of statements on political involvement by Jesus and the NT authors.

Haole
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Re: Politics

Post by Haole » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:45 am

I don't think Christians are to be minarchists or anarchists. We are told that we do have earthly leaders. They are in leadership positions that God has put in place. I think sin and rebellion puts people into positions to question authority and that may even spill over into givng authority to God. I think alot of people like the idea of being "saved" but have never given one hundred percent over to Jesus as LORD.

If Christians were to put God's Kingdom first, things may get ugly as far as earth-wise, but Kingdom-wise God's will would be better served. I think that the less trust we put in men would clear the way for God to show up in huge ways.

It's difficult to shake long-held beliefs, but having done it in practically every other instance and been successful through God, it's one of those things we/I just have to do.

If he gives us the desires of our hearts, and we ask for more righteous desires, he will grant that.

thrombomodulin
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Re: Politics

Post by thrombomodulin » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:04 pm

I agree that Christians should, in general, submit to the powers that be. However, it is a much different question as to whether Christians ought to seek to establish a political power, or avail themselves of political means to try to solve perceived problems. Though I am not an anarchist, I am sympathetic towards their viewpoint, and it is true that the anarchist is the only one with no political agenda because they do not favor politics as a means to accomplishing any end .

As far as I can discern from the scriptures it is God alone who establishes human authorities. In the old testament this was announced when a prophet anointed a king. I don't know of any present political figure today who can claim such evidence that God appointed him to his position. Does this mean the present powers are or are not appointed by God? I'm not sure. However, I am not seeing anywhere in the scripture where God delegates to the Church, or anyone else, the prerogative to establish a human authority that rules over others. Mark 10:41ff.

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Perry
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Re: Politics

Post by Perry » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:25 pm

thrombomodulin wrote:Though I am not an anarchist, I am sympathetic towards their viewpoint, and it is true that the anarchist is the only one with no political agenda because they do not favor politics as a means to accomplishing any end.
This may be the ideal, but in practice, most of the people I've met who claim to be anarchist's are really just pissed off with the prevailing authorities, and they would gladly replace that authority with a different authority of their choosing.

Steve,
Did I understand you correctly to one time mention that in Judges where it speaks of every one doing what was right in their own eyes, you saw this as, not so much an indictment against what was going on, so much as every man's conscience was sufficient to judge rightly? (If I'm misrepresenting what you said, please clarify.) Do you think that idea has relevance in the context of this discussion?

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jeremiah
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Re: Politics

Post by jeremiah » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:59 pm

thrombomodulin wrote:As far as I can discern from the scriptures it is God alone who establishes human authorities. In the old testament this was announced when a prophet anointed a king. I don't know of any present political figure today who can claim such evidence that God appointed him to his position. Does this mean the present powers are or are not appointed by God? I'm not sure. However, I am not seeing anywhere in the scripture where God delegates to the Church, or anyone else, the prerogative to establish a human authority that rules over others. Mark 10:41ff.
right on man, thanks for that.

grace and peace...
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Haole
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Re: Politics

Post by Haole » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:54 pm

"For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted..."

Romans 13:1-2

The positions and offices are there for God's purposes, and the people we vote for (on either side of the aisle) will be used for his purposes. That is NOT to be interpreted as "...they will be used to make laws that make Christianity the "law of the land" ". But for HIS purposes.

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Perry
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Re: Politics

Post by Perry » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:34 am

So when one candidate is for gay marriage but against abortion, and the other candidate is for abortion but against gay marriage, which one do you vote for? And once either of them are elected, do we assume then that it's God's purpose that either gay marriage or abortion (depending on the candidate) be legal in the land?

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mattrose
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Re: Politics

Post by mattrose » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:01 am

I don't think that Romans 13 means that every individual political leader is there b/c God wants them there. I think it means that the concept of human government is God's intirim idea for this fallen world. Of course, He can bring about His purposes in any set of circumstances too.

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jeremiah
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Re: Politics

Post by jeremiah » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:03 am

Perry wrote:So when one candidate is for gay marriage but against abortion, and the other candidate is for abortion but against gay marriage, which one do you vote for?
that touches one of many reasons i refuse to vote.
grace and peace...
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Haole
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Re: Politics

Post by Haole » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:17 am

Matt, EXACTLY. What I am saying is that God will do what he will do regardless of how bad we muck it up.

My main problem is when people say Christians should not get invloved "...because it appears as if we are trying to force our beliefs into the laws..." I approach it like, why not vote, since I can. And if I'm going to why not vote for the person who at least SAYS they are for certain things. We all sin, but what are we AIMING at?

I find it very unsettling that a person is a "...saved Christain, that knows where they're going when they die..." as they walkout the door with a "SARAH PALIN IS A -----" sign, and "HANDS OFF MY BIRTH CONTROL" and if you so much as bring it up to them in private, they say that you're judging.

If a candidate were for one issue and against another and the other candidate was the exact oppsite, that would be tough. Maybe I would do neither, but that is rarely the case. I'm not even talking about candidates. I'm talking about an individual, friend, cousin that says they are a Christian and has actual hate for the other guy and is straight up pro abortion.

If we aren't supposed to be involved, and the least we did was have bumper sticker that said, "LOWER TAXES" in some minds that is way too involved, but the other side of the coin bumper sticker says, "Don't like abortion, don't have one".

It seems strange that the divide in society is similar to the divide among Christians.

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