Apostolic "spheres" of authority

[KyleB]

I am reading through 2 Corinthians and this question came to my mind:

In Paul's own time, he recognized himself as having authority in churches that he started, but not churches started by others (2 Cor 10:12-16).

Also, we see that the apostles recognized that Paul/Barnabas were sent to the Gentiles while Peter/etc. were sent to the Jews (Acts 22:21; Gal 2:7-9).

It seems to me that Paul himself would not have tried to exert himself over the Jewish church. In modern times, most (I'm aware there are some groups who don't) recognize that Peter/etc. and Paul all have equal authority from Christ over all Christians regardless of ethnicity. We would say that Gentiles need to submit to the writings of Peter/etc., and that Jews need to submit to the writings of Paul. I'm not disputing this, I'm just wondering the precise reasoning for this. I'm aware of the fact that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ, but those were Paul's own words, yet he still made a distinction in who he had authority over.

Related, Paul did not start the church in Rome, and there was a significant Jewish population there, yet he seemed to have no qualms in giving instructions to the Roman Christians in his letter to them. Why would this be the case in light of his words in 2 Cor 10?

Thanks,
-Kyle

[jeremiah]

good morning kyle,

what translation are you using? i looked at the nasb, nkjv, niv, esv, and they all attempt a thought for thought with this passage. the older translations retaining formal equivalence in this passage, seem much clearer to me. at least clear that paul is not saying anything of his authority or lack there of over churches he didn't start , but something else.

i think if we see ch10 v13-16 as the construction metaphor it is, then paul is most likely communicating a similar concept to that of 1 cor 3:5-9. namely, one plants, another waters but God give's the increase. or one stretches the layout line, another fastens the particular building part in place, but God is the foreman who makes sure things go where they're supposed to according the plans. i don't think paul has the quantity of his jurisdiction in mind(who he does and doesn't have authority over), but rather the quality or purpose of his authority or jurisdiction.

i said 1 cor 3 is similar to 2 cor 10. but only conceptually. because in the first he's describing multiple authentic authorities, whose hearts are true, and who only labor according to the measure of the rule which God had distributed to them(arguably i know). in the second, i think he has the same concept in mind, but now in comparison to some who may have taught the corithians good things, but are puffed up with untrue hearts, * and go on to boast of things beyond their measure, or of other man's labors. paul on the other hand knows that when the corithians finally come around and realize these guys are false then the corithians will understand more fully that paul's authenticity and authority is indeed for their edification, not their destruction.

finally, he then goes on to reprimand the corinthians for following false people. and by this i think ch 10,11,and 12 point more to paul's commitment to the quality or purpose of the ruler measured to him by God. and not so much who or where that rule may be stretched over.

grace and peace...

*nevermind, i'm retracting the words in red, the more i go through 2 corinthians the more this seems a hasty and unsupported way to understand paul's thoughts.

[mattrose]

I think there is a difference b/w 'pastoral' authority and 'teaching' authority. I think Paul & Peter both served in both roles, and they often overlap, but there's probably still a distinction worth making there. Their 'teaching' authority was relevant to all Christians as they declared the Gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ. Their 'pastoral' authority was applied only to groups they had a hand in forming.

Those are my initial thoughts in response to your question. Forgive me if they are not well thought out since I only took 2 minutes to type it while thinking

[KyleB]

Jeremiah,

I was reading from the nkjv, which uses the phrase "sphere", which I took to mean an area of influence/activity.

In v.15-16 Paul speaks of "not boasting...in other men's labors" and "not to boast in another man’s sphere of accomplishment". He compares these as being the opposite of what he mentions in v.14, where he said that he was not overextending himself (as if his authority did not extend to the Corinthians), "for it was to you that we came with the gospel of Christ". That sounded to me like he was saying that his authority over the Corinthians derived from the fact that he reached them with the gospel and planted this congregation, whereas in a church planted by another apostle, Paul would feel it out of place for him to speak with such boldness. But in the words of Cousin Eddie: "I dunno."

i said 1 cor 3 is similar to 2 cor 10. but only conceptually. because in the first he's describing multiple authentic authorities, whose hearts are true, and who only labor according to the measure of the rule which God had distributed to them(arguably i know). in the second, i think he has the same concept in mind, but now in comparison to some who may have taught the corithians good things, but are puffed up with untrue hearts, and go on to boast of things beyond their measure, or of other man's labors. paul on the other hand knows that when the corithians finally come around and realize these guys are false then the corithians will understand more fully that paul's authenticity and authority is indeed for their edification, not their destruction.

I guess we see 1 Cor 3 in the same way, but 2 Cor 10 differently. My impression was that Paul actually was speaking of false authorities, people who were teaching wrongly and trying to undermine Paul now that he was out of town. The "boasting" he speaks of I took not as his description of what the other teachers were doing, but as a sort of tongue-in-cheek defense of why the Corinthians ought to pay attention to him and not these others. I see Paul's words in 10:12-18 as a sort of proactive defense against what some might see as Paul's disproportionately high view of himself in 10:8-11.

Matt:

Yeah, that could make sense.

[Paidion]

Here's an interesting passage which seems to imply that the local brothers at Berea had authority over Paul:

But when the Jews from Thessalonica learned that the word of God was proclaimed by Paul at Berea also, they came there too, agitating and stirring up the crowds. Then the brothers immediately sent Paul off on his way to the sea, but Silas and Timothy remained there. (Acts 17:13,14)

It appears that the Berean brothers had the authority to send Paul on his way (in order that he might escape the Jews from Thessalonica.)

[jeremiah]

hello kyle,

I guess we see 1 Cor 3 in the same way, but 2 Cor 10 differently. My impression was that Paul actually was speaking of false authorities, people who were teaching wrongly and trying to undermine Paul now that he was out of town...

in case you don't immediately notice, i retracted the words in red in my first reply. the more i consider the whole of pauls letter, i agree with your above impression.

... I see Paul's words in 10:12-18 as a sort of proactive defense against what some might see as Paul's disproportionately high view of himself in 10:8-11.

but wouldn't the fact that he speaks of "our" authority (that of true apostles) throughout the passage, and not "his" singular authority, rule out ( ) anyone seeing paul words as showing a disproportionately high view of himself?

grace and peace...

[KyleB]

in case you don't immediately notice, i retracted the words in red in my first reply. the more i consider the whole of pauls letter, i agree with your above impression.

Hey! I certainly didn't notice, my "forum eyes" must need a tune-up.

I am a very new Bible student myself, so I don't put much stock in my own opinion, but I do enjoy discussion.

but wouldn't the fact that he speaks of "our" authority (that of true apostles) throughout the passage, and not "his" singular authority, rule out ( ) anyone seeing paul words as showing a disproportionately high view of himself?

I guess this could either be a real plural for all the apostles as you are suggesting, or it might be Paul referring to himself in the majestic plural. If you look at 10:9-11, you can see that he switches from saying "I" to "we". In your view, is Paul referring to himself in v. 11, or a group of people?

I think however, that if you're right about the "apostolic our", then that would actually answer the whole question that I started with at the beginning, because then Paul would be arguing that all the apostles have authority over any congregation.

[jeremiah]

good morning kyle,

If you look at 10:9-11, you can see that he switches from saying "I" to "we". In your view, is Paul referring to himself in v. 11, or a group of people?

a group of people. i think specifically himself, timothy, silas, and titus. (2cor 1:1,1:19,7:13,12:18) though i wouldn't be surprised if he was also including true ministers and apostles of Christ in general in some or many of them.

paul had been switching back and forth between i, we, our, and me from the very beginning and in every chapter of this letter except chapters 9 and 11. i recognize that some of these "we"[s] are probably generic, speaking of the common christian experience. but on the whole, i think you can count those on one hand.

I think however, that if you're right about the "apostolic our", then that would actually answer the whole question that I started with at the beginning, because then Paul would be arguing that all the apostles have authority over any congregation.

i wouldn't say that's what he's arguing for. in ch 10:12-16, anytime he says we don't do this or we don't do that, i think he's distinguishing between what the false ministers/apostles are doing, and them the true. then in v 16, when paul says "...not boasting in another man's line of things made ready to our hand..." he's continuing this same distinction between the false and true. these false guys are measuring themselves by the themselves, and boasting in paul, silas, and timothy's line of things made ready to their hand.

i'm not saying i disagree with the root of your suggestion, unless by "over any congregation" you mean universal and absolute authority. i just don't think this passage is intended to teach about degrees of authority among churches started by paul or another minister.

grace and peace...