Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?

[Shaul]

Been listening to Steve for a long time now and really appreciate what the Lord has blessed him with and have been greatly blessed by his ministry. I have been to the forum many times and find it easy to get lost in and enjoy the discussion. I figured it would be a great place to ask a question after all this time. I hope that I have posted in the right place and I hope that I have not duplicated. I have searched the forum for answers but have not been able to find any posts that are great. I know the search on these is not the best. So now for my question.

I have a really good friend and now business partner who I believe is maybe a messianic Jew. Believes in Jesus and all that he has done for us but also still very attached to the festivals, sabbath, etc. I could be labeling him wrong and hopefully I will not misrepresent him here. He has been challenging my business partner and I to really think and read through more about the festivals and to really see what the Lord has there. He is very gracious in his approach and willing to answer a lot of questions. He is not forceful at all and in a lot of ways reminds me of Steve in the way he encourages you to dig for yourself. I have started to do so but to be honest am slow. In my journey to learn more I thought I would also pose the question here and see what views are out there and more importantly the verses and scripture references that come back.

In my mind and upbringing the festivals were not something that were even really thought about. They were mentioned when reading in and through the OT but outside of that I really did not think about them. Did not question whether or not they were for today or not. Just assumed that Jesus offset anything that we needed to do there. However, if we as Christians are suppose to be observing these festivals and are even commanded to do so I want to be the first to change my tune for both my family and myself. I want to be living in obedience to what the Lord has asked of us. At the same time I don't want to just do something without understanding it. Have to admit there is some hesitation here and even some worry. Part of me does not want the observance of the festivals to be true as it will make some things very challenging within the family, etc. That is at the same time why I must continue to dig and learn.

So on a very base level here are some of the verses that my good friend passed to me in terms of the festivals of which we are supposed to keep forever. My question is, are the festivals for today? Should my family and I be observing these? Any scripture references and clarity that can be brought would be greatly appreciated and looked forward to.

• Ex 12:14, 24 (Passover)
• Ex 31:16-17 (Weekly Sabbath)
• Lev 16:30-31 (Yom Kippur / Atonement)
• Lev 23:21 (Shavuot / Weeks / Pentecost)
• Lev 23:31 (Yom Kippur / Atonement)
• Lev 23:41 (Sukkot / Tabernacles)

Thanks for any time spent on reading through this post and answering. I am very excited and a little bit scared to learn more.

Blessings!

[dwilkins]

The festival issue is very interesting to me. First of all, the Gentiles of the New Testament time were not under the Law of Moses and therefore were not expected to follow the festival system (this doesn't mean that something academic about typology can't be learned from them, but observing them as a bona fide religious act is a huge problem per Paul's advice in Galatians, which says that if you place yourself under the Law you lose out on Christ). The Jews continued to follow the festal calendar throughout the NT. Paul seems clear in Galatians, Colossians, and elsewhere that they were optional for Christian Jews. If observing them would help him identify with Jews to evangelize them then he would do so, but he realized they were only typology and therefore essentially meaningless (so in the cases of both the Jews and Gentiles they were effectively meaningless because they'd already been fulfilled in Christ, though for Jews they might still serve as a tool to reach other Jews). If you follow futurist eschatology then this paradigm (there is no point to them other than academic curiosity for Gentiles and they are useful for evanglizing Jews for Jewish Christians but not mandatory) continues.

However, it's important to remember that the basic sequence of eschatology is described in the feast system. The feasts themselves were dress rehersals for the typology that would in reality be fulfilled by Christ. They were celebrated on the day that they were actually fulfilled as eschatology (Christ was crucified on Passover, burried on the initiation of Unleaved Bread, raised on First Fruits, the church was formed on Pentacost, etc.). The last three feasts represent the end of Israel's eschatology, where Tabernacles initiates a new era of rest for the people of God. Full Preterists would say that the fall feasts were fulfilled in the fall of 70AD, so that this cycle is done. Premillennialists (post trib rapture) are looking forward to the rapture happening on one of the Feast of Trumpet days at some point in the future (if they follow some of the current Messianic Jewish thought, which I think they should pay attention to if they want to take their system seriously). Dispensational Premillennialists (pre trib rapture) are stuck because their rapture paradigm doesn't follow the feast system at all, which is a pretty strong argument that they've got it wrong. Amil, PostMil, Classical Premil, and Dispensational Premil all have a significant problem in their view of the Law of Moses because all of them (though each for different reasons) describe the Law of Moses as either ending or being put aside at the cross. Since the feast system is part of the Law they can't account for what to do with the feasts being fulfilled as an element of eschatology. If the Amil and Postmil camps would scoot the date to the right to 70AD, they could leave room for the feats to be fulfilled and then the Law ended, though they would then have a problem justifying Dominion Theology because the Law they base it on has ended. All four camps have an additional problem of postulating a rapture at some point in the future though they leave no room for the Law being operational when the rapture is supposed to happen (for the Dispensationalists the Law doesn't start again until the Tribulation begins, but the rapture happens before that; for the Amil and Postmil the Law ended in 30AD, but the resurrection promised at the end is based on the Law, so they seem stuck). And, again, as the Messianic Jews skillfully point out the rapture is simply the Feast of Trumpets.

Doug

[Shaul]

Wow, a ton of that was over my head. I am going to have to read it a few more times and think on it and see if I can't get a handle on it. So does the question somewhat depend on what you think Israel is? So say a gentile is grafted in or what nor doesn't that mean him or her would have to follow the Law at the point. Become circumcised etc. Also, it seemed like in the note that my friend had sent along there was a lot of emphasis on the words permanent, forever and everlasting as represented by the Hebrew word "owlam" (Strong's H6759). The trigger verse for me on that was Exodus 12:14. So does "forever" really mean forever. I feel like that is one of the arguments made here. It also did not feel like the Jewish thing was so much a factor as much as the looking at the people group Israel or maybe what we would now call the body of Christ and what we need to be doing as a whole. I am sure there are so many holes in my thinking but wanted to respond back to try and gain more understanding even though I feel like I am way off here.

Also, what are some thoughts on Sabbath? Is that still for today. Is that something we need to be in obedience to? I don't see a problem with it really and maybe even some benefits, however I am not sure I feel as though it is required due to many NT scriptures. My rough understanding is that everyday should be somewhat treated as the Sabbath was in thinking and not so much action. Wow, typing this stuff out really helps me realize how little I know. Feeling a little bit lost here.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law. Does that mean that much of it no longer applies although many of the principles are still sound and would perhaps even bring benefit and blessing.

Thanks again for your time, thoughts and replies.
Also, not sure it even matters but I definitely lean towards a more preterist view. However much of that I am still trying to sort through and I sit where I sit at the moment purely on what I heard and learned form Steve's series on Revelation. Much to go in that arena in terms of understanding, retainment, etc.

[dwilkins]

I don't have much time to comment this morning, but I'll quickly say that regardless of which side of the eschatological spectrum you are on if you observe the feast days, sabbath, or any other element of the Mosaic Law as something has inherent religious significance then you have violated the point that Paul is making in Galatians and you have fallen from grace. Paul is very clear on this.

Doug

[steve7150]

Jesus came to fulfill the Law. Does that mean that much of it no longer applies although many of the principles are still sound and would perhaps even bring benefit and blessing.







Certainly the principals are sound but i believe various places in the NT indicate the holidays were fulfilled in Christ or Messiah. For example Jesus said "therefore it is legal to do good on the Sabbath" (Matt 13) which may not sound dramatic , except that "doing good" includes working which makes the Sabbath on the same level as other days.
Paul in Col 2 listed the holidays in descending order down to the weekly Sabbath and said it's not necessary to keep them but he also said if it's meaningful to you then you can observe them. However some of them required animal sacrifices biblically speaking and are not kept anymore so even if you observe the holidays it's really as a memorial.
If you look at these holidays as a memorial rather then a ritual then i believe Paul indicated it was fine.
As far as "the law" goes moral laws remain unless Jesus changed it but the other laws which were ritual are fulfilled.

[dwilkins]

As far as "the law" goes moral laws remain unless Jesus changed it but the other laws which were ritual are fulfilled.

That's an interesting distinction to make. It seems to me that Jesus makes it impossible for the Law of Moses to be split up. Either all of it is valid or none of it is ("not one jot or tittle will pass away", etc.). That's speaking of the the Law itself as a packaged deal. There is no such thing as the eclipse of the moral law or ceremonial law without the whole thing going away. Paul's tweak on that is that, per Romans 7, it's not the Law that passes away in order to release the Jewish Christians (the Gentile Christians had never been under it, so it was irrelevant to them in any case) it's that the Jewish believers died to the Law (gave up their membership in the Mosaic Covenant) in order to be joined to the New Covenant. Morality in a general sense is not jeopardized because morality doesn't change, and the Law of Christ under the New Covenant reflects the same morality that the Mosaic Covenant did (it was morally wrong for Abraham to lie, cheat on your spouse, and kill, and he existed 430 years before the Mosaic Law described these sins in the 10 Commandments). The question remains, did the Mosaic Law (which included the festivals) continue to exist and for how long?

Doug

[Shaul]

The question remains, did the Mosaic Law (which included the festivals) continue to exist and for how long?

That is definitely my question or at least part of the question I have out to myself. I would also add and for who? Seems like it has been mentioned that this only applies to the Jew. Am I looking at that correct? I guess I am starting to form questions as to the importance and difference between the Jew and the gentile post Jesus death on the cross.

Also I too was wondering how Matthew 5:17-19 played into the discussion.

Romans 7 was mentioned as well so I was looking at that and wondering how it should be viewed in light of the questions at hand?

Romans 7:6 - But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Also as mentioned this does seem to pertain as well...

Col. 2:16-17 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ

[steve7150]

Romans 7:6 - But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Also as mentioned this does seem to pertain as well...

Col. 2:16-17 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ
Shaul Posts: 3Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:43 am



IMO it is implicit in Rom 7 and other quotes regarding "the law" that the ritual laws are fulfilled including the Sabbath, however moral laws are part of God's character and are unbroken because reversing them violates God himself.
For example if God decided the Sabbath would be Sunday instead of Sat would that violate his character?, but if Jesus said now we need not honor our father and mother or that it is godly to covet our neighbors wife obviously these last two are moral laws and can't be contradicted.

Jesus did reveal God's real intention in certain moral laws like "anger without a cause" equating to murder is meant to emphasize that the intention of our hearts is really where evil begins not just the outward act. But he didn't reverse the moral command not to murder. I think the Law of Moses was directed toward Israelites who were mostly jews and possibly the early disciples observed the holidays but Paul clearly indicated to everyone that these holidays were memorials and it was now a personal decision, not a command.

[mattrose]

The entirety of Mosaic Law was 'fulfilled' in Christ... but the ramifications of 'fulfillment' differ depending on the kind of law. When a ritual/ceremonial law is fulfilled, the practice of that ritual/ceremony becomes obsolete. It was a shadow and has been replaced with a reality. Jesus fulfilled the moral law by living the perfect (sinless and faithful) life. But because He is our King... and because we are to follow Him... and because morality flows out of God's very nature... the ramification of Jesus' fulfillment does not dismiss us from living the moral life. Our proper response to Jesus' fulfillment of all things is a faithful response which includes moral living.

[dwilkins]

The entirety of Mosaic Law was 'fulfilled' in Christ... but the ramifications of 'fulfillment' differ depending on the kind of law. When a ritual/ceremonial law is fulfilled, the practice of that ritual/ceremony becomes obsolete. It was a shadow and has been replaced with a reality. Jesus fulfilled the moral law by living the perfect (sinless and faithful) life. But because He is our King... and because we are to follow Him... and because morality flows out of God's very nature... the ramification of Jesus' fulfillment does not dismiss us from living the moral life. Our proper response to Jesus' fulfillment of all things is a faithful response which includes moral living.

So the question is, if the crucifixion was on Passover, the burial was at the beginning of Unleavened Bread, the resurrection was on First Fruits, and the establishment of the church was on Pentacost (so that the types were fulfilled on the day they were celebrated for the first four feasts) when were the last three feasts fulfilled? If they weren't, then the Mosaic Law is still in effect. If they were, there are even bigger implications.

Doug